Talk:Tribe of Mic-O-Say
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Tribe of Mic-O-Say is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
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This article needs editing. There is already a decent article on H. Roe Bartle, we don't need all this info on him here. This article needs to focus only on the Tribe, its purpose, history, etc. --Emb021 1 July 2005 20:03 (UTC)
I've edited, and trimmed down what was here. Someone basically copied over the wordy history of M-O-S from the Pony Express MOS page. Not good, as that might be considered a copyright violation. I tried to bring the page more in-line with the OA page, but others with first hand knowledge of MOS need to take it from here, and fill in the gaps. --Emb021 20:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
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I'd also try and make it a little more objective. Right now there are some subjective parts that aren't neccessarily bad or incorrect but could be considered POV. exempli graitia
"Our council also consistently wins top honors in program quality, and Mic-O-Say plays no small part in those honors. Our dancers are in demand at many Scout and civic functions, and have performed at both National and World Scout Jamborees. O" -- Capi crimm(too lazy to sign in)
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[edit] Charter Members of Mic-O-Say
Ned Gold Sr. is a charter member of Mic-o-Say. His Son Ned Gold jr. has picture of Mr. Gold with H Roe Bartel and one other charter members at Camp Adair. He willing to e-mail them to as soon as he locates them.
Sincerely
Leland Foland TTB Friendly Forest
I wonder about this since there has never been MOS at a camp Adair. The charter members were at Camp Carey/Camp Brinton/Camp Dan Sayre. --flyingember
[edit] Mic_O_Say and OA
Can someone explain to me how Mic-O-Say is not in competiton with the OA? Does OA also exist in these councils? Can someone be in both organizations? Rlevse 14:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
- It's hypothetically possible. the HOAC has 2 camps, Theodore Naish scout reservation and Bartle. Bartle has Mic-O-Say, wheras Naish has OA. however, naish is smaller, and has less camp sessions. although it's possible for scouts to go down outside of camp sessions to get into OA, most don't. and quite frankly, most who get into mic-o-say don't see the point of OA and view Mic-O-Say as much more desirable. i've heard personal accounts from scouts who are in OA and are both not sure what the point of it is and view it as inferior to m-o-s. those aren't necessesarily my opinions, that's just a general consensius. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 07:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- So why do they think MicOSay is so much better? Even if this is so in the case you're talking about, that could be a reflection of the local OA lodge, not all OA lodges. Rlevse 10:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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- it might be, but the fact is that Mic-o-say is an incredible and unique program, and there's really a comroderie and a sense of accomplishment and heritage. for me persoanlly, both of my grandfathers were in the tribe, all of my uncles, my dad, and my brother and all my couisins who are guys. even among circles of friends not related with my own scout experience, there's a special connection with anyone who wears the claws. and i think a part of it is that it is a reigional thing and that it is a very exclusive group (in the sense that there are only about 60,000 members), and that it's soomething that is reallly earned. almost all of my scout camp memories involve the tribe in some way, from my first opening ceremony to when the chieftain put my claws around my neck. mic-o-say is something that none forget even if the memories grow old. it's not that we hold OA in a low esteem, it's that we hold Mic-O-Say in a very high esteem. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 17:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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- I can understand that, but I know people who feel the same way about their own troop and OA Lodges. Rlevse 18:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
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all the power to them, really. mic-o-say isn't here to "be better than OA". it's here to be it's own scouting honor system, and my point is that it does a really good job of being one. --preschooler@heart my talk - contribs 18:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mic-O-Say and Order of the Arrow "Competition"
To Whom It Concerns:
I am both a Tribesman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation, but I am also a Brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow in the Nampa-Tsi Lodge (the Lodge for the Great Rivers Council).
To address the question of whether or not there is competition between the two programs, I would have to say that yes, there is; however, I do not believe that Mic-O-Say is doing the competing. The ones doing the competing are the Order of the Arrow lodges in the councils surrounding the Heart of America Council. Being a member of the Nampa-Tsi Lodge in the Great Rivers Council, I see this competition all of the time. The Great Rivers Council camps are struggling greatly, and I am sure that many other camps in other councils are in the same boat. Numbers for campers are down tremendously, and this is a major problem. The problem is this: Truthfully, the programs at the camps just aren't quality programs. When you go to Bartle, you can witness the quality program it has to offer: the attractive Mic-O-Say, the large number of program areas, the large amount of merit badges offered, the facilities, etc. Even before I entered the Tribe, I saw the program as superb in comparison to the program offered at the camps in my home council. The whole issue with low numbers of campers in the Great Rivers Council came up in the past few years. The council has been trying to find some way to better its program. They just recently organized a program that is supposed to go into effect this summer camping season, and when I was at meetings for the ratification of the program, it came up several times that they had to better the program to compete with outside camping programs in other councils (Mic-O-Say being the targeted program). And it isn't just competition in that matter. At many different in-council events that I go to, I get downgraded -literally- for being in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. At several OA events, I am told to remove my Mic-O-Say claws [although I refuse and don't]. I am shunned as being a out-of-council camper by several. When I went to National Jamboree I was somewhat harassed for being a Tribesman. Now, this isn't everyone; however, it does seem like many people. When I go to Bartle, I am not shunned for being an Arrowmen. I am an active member in both programs. I don't know why there is this conflict, but I don't agree with any of it. It is true, though, that the Order of the Arrow program has become diluted over the years. You could ask almost Arrowman and he would say that. Now, I see the spirit there, but I don't see a well organized program. The Tribe is very organized. Some think that the Tribe is too adult-run. Now, it is true that the leadership is composed of adults, but this is to assure that the Tribe carries on consistently throughout ages to come. I see it as financial security and as a way to stabilize the program. The only thing I see differently with OA is that the leadership is sometimes composed of young men who are either too busy to commit to the program fully, or they totally end up blowing it off, but in the Tribe, it is the adults' jobs to see things through and to make sure they get done. The other day I overheard somebody say "It's the adults that make the boys go to Bartle." (This being said in regards to complaining about out-of-council camping troops like ours.) This is wrong. It is the boys that decide to come back to Bartle every year. The Tribe wouldn't survive without the spirit of the Scouts that enter it and become involved in it. For our troop, there just isn't anything in our council to keep Scouts wanting to come back. When you look at the return rate for campers in the Heart of America Council, the number is approximately 4.5 years on average for each Scout. In the Great Rivers Council, this number is two years less. There just must be something special that makes the Heart of America Council return rate this high, and I believe that I have covered this [multiple times, most likely].
I love both programs. I see the good in both, and I am glad that I experience both. I go to all functions in both.
In Scouting,
Adam Morton -- Brotherhood Member of the Nampa-Tsi Lodge; Warrior Shadow of Silent Thunderbird in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say
- This doesn't explain how they're not in competition if they're both honor camper programs; it mainly dwells on poor organization and camp programs. Rlevse 21:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I would have to choose to respond to the above article. I have formerly been the Lodge chief of Heart of America council's lodge, Tamegonit. Everything you said is completely true, but completely reciprocal as well. I have been told repeatedly when I attended camp at Bartle to take my arrowhead off, being cited as being at the "wrong" camp. I have also ensured that several youth staff members would not be hired again the following camping season. I agree with you completely- the Tribe has a very stable structure, and its longevity is almost assured for many years to come. As a past lodge chief, I recognized this fact greatly. The one thing I tried to do most of all was to assure some form of continuity in Tamegonit's lodge structure. This is an extremely difficult feat to accomplish because it is youth run, and youth are elected. Further, we often have to turn to Mic-O-Say leadership for capable adults to advise our youth. There have been advisers in our lodge that are in many ways, detrimental to the youth leadership structure, and that is because we cannot find adults willing to dedicate themselves fully to OA every year. However, if you go ahead and take a step back, and look at the big picture, what you see is fairly amazing. Tamegonit Lodge is youth-run, in a council that is not always willing to provide the best adult support they can. This often leaves youth on their own, or working with too many advisers for their own good. The fact that the lodge still exists with youth leadership, should be considered an extraordinary feat. I ask, and I think you know the true answer, would you have been able to lead a lodge when you are 17 years old and in high school? I think the vast majority of people would say no, they would not have the leadership skills or the committment to do so. Even if OA is not the greatest program around, it is still amazing that it has existed on youth leadership for all these years. I know that in recent years, both groups in HOAC have moved to reach out to one another. We accept that we are different groups, but we share many similiarities and can help each other. This is most visible in the fact that every single presiding chief of Mic-O-Say is invited each and every year to participate in lodge events. Whether they choose to or not is up to them. This past year, the chief has been extraordinarily helpful and was even willing to come to an OA event to discuss the differences between the two groups in our council. It was heated for sure, but it was worth it.
One other fact you may be unaware of (unless you are familar with the leaders of the HOAC and Mic-O-Say, you probably haven't heard this), most of the upper level leaders strongly support OA because of the reciprocal benefits it has on Mic-O-Say. OA provides youth with experience in leadership, who can later go on to be leaders in the tribe. This is not to say it is a stepping stone organization, it is just the natural order of the two groups because of the age difference. Tamegonit leaders (at least the upper level ones) strongly support Mic-O-Say for the same reason. It helps keep youth interested in scouting, and subsequentially helps OA's membership.
I strongly support both organizations, and have worked with both groups. They both have shortcomings, but it is only when you fail to see the positives in one group or the other that we have a competition. They are not in competition, they are in cooperation.
[edit] Racism
I was one of those unfortunate kids sent to Bartle in the mid 1970s. I can't believe that this racist fake Indian tribe is still around. It's unfortunate that this entry glosses over the racism of a bunch of white people running around the Ozarks dressed as fake Native Americans. It certainly doesn't help that the Boy Scouts are a homophobic, quasi-fascist organization.
RESPONSE TO THE MAN WHO MADE THE ABOVE STATEMENT ABOUT THE TRIBE OF MIC-O-SAY BEING RACIST:
Excuse me, but the Tribe of Mic-O-Say is NOT a racist program in any way, and I take major offense to your statement. The things we do are carried out in a fashion that is both respectful and honorable to the Native Americans. In no way are we being disrespectful to their traditions and ways of life.
-Anonymous Tribesman (Response Made on May 6, 2006"
September 11, 2006
I would also like to agree with the above Tribesman. One of the reasons that the Heart of America Council has one of the highest Eagle Scout percentages in BSA is because of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. The tribe gives motivation to return to our beloved reservation every summer. If the tribe is as you say it is, then why are there over 60,000 members?
Firebuilder Swift Agile Fox I question the above statistic and would like to see some corroborating evidence. I see it listed in the main article as well, but it strikes me as very POV. While I'm sure the council is proud of their eagle and retention rate, can it really be attributed to M-O-S? Justinm1978 08:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
To help support the above arguement that eagle and retention rates in the HOAC can be attribited to MOS, it should be stated that the PEC also has very high numbers in these categories. The PEC has the only other official Tribe in the country (also the orginal). We do not have an OA lodge, although, as our numbers have been growing at record rates over the last decade we do have several out of council campers that are also members of the OA. Most of these out of council campers (from as far away as Illinois, Texas, and Colorado) that visit our camp -Camp Geiger- fall in love with the MOS program and several scouts request that their leaders allow them to return in future summers. Again, most do. Also, our eagle rate is well over the 4% national average. Because our page is currently under contruction, I really don't have much evidence to help support all of this. I can say that I am originally from the HOAC and have attended both camps there, so I do speak from a somewhat knowledgable background of the Kansas City region. If you really want the best evidence I can offer you, then I would recommend that you bring your troop to either camp Geiger or Bartle in the near future and see it all for yourself. I can garantee you won't be disappointed. Finally, the only piece of hard evidence that I do have to offer is an article from the National BSA homepage that states how our very small council (a little over 3,000 campers attended Geiger in 2006) was able to raise over 2 million dollars for camp improvements. In the article PEC directors attribute the fundraising success to the regional support of the Tribe and it's many loyal members. Link Below. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=pony+express+council In reguards to the other posts about competition, I wouldn't say there is much in the PEC. As I stated, we don't have an OA lodge. In previous years, I can admitt that I have seen many accounts of OA members being frowned upon at Geiger. Those "old school" thoughts of the past are behind the current leadership. It is one of our goals to welcome all out of council campers and introduce them to our Tribe not in a way that shuns other honor programs, but allows them to see our program and choose for themselves to return or not for future camping seasons. In resonse to the idea of competition on a whole, I beleive that both programs have similar goals in mind that not only encourage the scout oath and law, but also encourage scouts to stay on the path to eagle and receive all there is to receive from the scouting program. This is the thinking that the current MOS leadership beleives and therefore sees no sense in responding in a non-scouting attitude towards any honor program.
[edit] userbox
There is a rather plain Mic-O-Say userbox available. Anyone who wants to make it better looking, feel free.
[edit] There is no reason to delete this section until it can actually fail a fact check.
Removed due to exaggeration and vandalism about the program. Please do not readd. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flyingember (talk • contribs) 01:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
