Talk:Treaty of Melno

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Could anybody translate this into EN? M.K. 21:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

I think it should drop "lake" from its name and become just "Treaty of Melno" because looking for Treaty of Lake Melno points back to WP and its mirrow. Renata 13:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The treaty rarely seems to be mentioned in English. The Christiansen book I mentioned in the references section uses "Lake Melno". Google Books gives 2:0 (Melno:Lake Melno) and Google Scholar gives 3:0 (Melno:Lake Melno). Regular Google and Yahoo searches for either term mostly give wiki-mirrors. Either name seems fine. Olessi 15:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Lake Melno has no hit at all. I am much more confortable naming an article after some name that could be at least found on google. I know that Melno is not a popular subject in English language, but the few hits that are are all for Melno without a lake. Renata 17:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There are some some hits [1],[2], although several are wiki-mirrors. Like I said, I am fine with either name. If you do move the article, remember to change the en: links at the interwikis too. Cheers! Olessi 17:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I also believe that this article should be named only Treaty of Melno. M.K. 18:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Same here. Appleseed (Talk) 19:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I've started this article on English Wiki based on the German version. There are two other language versions, yet obviously no-one had translated these into english before I did. I don't understand them, but I guess there is no "lake" in these names. Do some feel that the name I've chosen is too close to the German names Melnosee/Meldensee? There is a town named Melno and a lake named Melno [3] and the German name indicates that the treaty was signed at the lake, not in the town (which might not be that old anyway, does anyone know for sure?). This information should not be deleted intentionally just because Google is less specific. The redirect Treaty of Melno will catch those who look for that name. See also Battle of Lake Peipus - somebody felt the need to move it to a rather general "Battle of the Ice" (a hockey game or what?).--Matthead 22:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with German name. It's just (1) Google test fails and (2) is seems weird to name treaties in such way: imaginary examples, Treaty of Big City, Treaty of ABC Forest, Treaty of XYZ Castle, Treaty of Deep Lake, Treaty of Long River, Treary of Small Island in Long River? Usually the city/forests/etc. is dropped because it is shorter and the location where it was signed is not that important. As long as there are no other treaties signed at the same location. BTW, I did not even know it was a lake before... Renata 02:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

See, you've learnt something, now give others a chance to do so, too (and maybe adjust the interwiki articles). Why would a treaty in 1422 be named after what seems to be a railway station with a small settlement? Back then, the lake was chosen as location, not the next city - else it would be "Treaty of Graudenz". At the time, this city was in possession of the Knights. BTW, there is a Treaty of Sztumska Wieś, do want to shorten that name also to a "Treaty of Sztum", as "it is shorter and the location where it was signed is not that important"? --Matthead 07:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

But if I never heard about Melno being a lake, I will not look for it. The lake fact could be just mentioned on the body. It would educate in the same way. Renata 20:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War

Is there a name for the conflict that this treaty concluded? Appleseed (Talk) 03:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of. Christiansen's treatment of the material in The Northern Crusades:

• "In 1283, according to the chronicler of the Teutonic Knights, Peter Dusburg, the conquest of the Prussians ended and the war with the Lithuanians began. It was still going on when he was writing, in the 1320s, and would continue intermittently until the peace of Lake Melno in 1422, when the Order was compelled to surrender for good its claim to northern Lithuania and Samogitia" (p. 139)
• "From 1418 to 1422, Kuchmeister confronted Wladyslaw's demands for his western territories with a perfectly respectable series of charters, and answers that satisfied the imperial tribunal at Breslau (Wroclaw); but, when Wladyslaw lost patience with the negotiations and invaded Prussia once more, the Order was compelled to come to terms after a campaign that lasted less than two months. By the treaty of Lake Melno (Meldensee) Kuchmeister's successor, Paul von Russdorf, surrendered various scraps of frontier territory to Poland, and resigned the Order's residual claim to Samogitia for ever. Von Russdorf had appealed to the Empire for help, but the Polish advance had been so rapid that the war was over before any crusaders arrived. A month after the treaty, on 27 October 1422, Count-Palatine Lewis of the Rhine, and Archbishop Dietrich von Moers of Cologne led their men into Prussia. They spent the winter there, and then went home" (pp 140-141).

Desmond Seward writes in The Monks of War:

• His destroyer and successor, the elderly Grossmarschall, Michael Kuchmeister von Sternberg, who led the brethren in the war of 1414-22, knew the Order could not risk a pitched battle. The knights stayed in the impregnable Ordensburgen, riding forth on vicious raids by night. The Poles counter-attacked, entire districts of the Ordensland being depopulated by massacre or famine. The pope even listened favourably to complaints by the Poles at the Council of Constance, though the Order's spokesman managed to avoid condemnation. The war culminated with a full-scale Polish invasion of Prussia in 1422. Hochmeister Paul Bellizer von Rusdorf made peace, ceding Samaiten and also Nieszawa - the first town given to the Order by the Poles in the thirteen century. The Deutschmeister (Landmeister of Germany) reproached him bitterly" (p. 127).

From PWN's History of Poland:

• "War with the Teutonic Order broke out again, but the Knights were forced by the peace of the Mielno lake of 1422 to give up all claim to Samogitia. In this manner the German expansion on the Baltic was halted for many centuries and with the ambitious plans for creating a consolidated Prusso-Livonian State governed by German lords" (117).

From William Urban's The Teutonic Knights:

• Samogitia was lost at Tannenberg in 1410, a fact that the order acknowledged, more or less, in the Treaty of Melno in 1422; but the knights deluded themselves for many years that the crusading tradition could still be revived" (277).

From O. Halecki's History of Poland"

• "Therefore, the peace concluded at Torun in 1411 in no way corresponded with the hopes of Grunwald. Poland contented herself with insignificant concessions, and the question of Samogitia was regulated in an absurd manner. Jagiello and Vitold were to be its masters until their death, but then it was to return to the Order. After the treaty was signed each party began to accuse the other of not respecting its stipulations. The struggle was resumed three times. These by no means glorious wars offer little that is of interest. They ended in 1422 in a new treaty of peace which obliged the Order definitely to renounce Samogitia" (p. 78).

Olessi 06:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I did a quick Google Books search, and came up with Gollub War. Does that sound familiar? Appleseed (Talk) 13:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of the phrase, although it sounds like a reference to Golub-Dobrzyń. Olessi 14:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that town was besieged during the brief war. Here are some refs: 1, 2. I'll stub out Gollub War. Appleseed (Talk) 15:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Good job! Renata 20:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)