Talk:Transvestism

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[edit] 2004 Discussion

I'd appreciate if anybody would a) check this text for mistakes I did not catch, since I am not a native speaker, and b), more importantly, for understandability. It's an extremely compley subject I tried to expain there.

Also, compare against transvestite.

I wonder if this should be at transvestite (word) or similar?

This article looks funny. Why is it structured as such (like, with all the <br> and Today: in it)? - Mark 15:00, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's simple - because the text is rather long, the fat today is there to structure it a bit. And the line breaks are there to keep text together that belongs together (unlike paragraphs) without making it unreadable. There is a reason, you know, that both line breaks and paragraphs exist. -- AlexR 18:36, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Article title changed to "Transvestism". Merriam-Webster lists this as the correct spelling. Google gives only 6,390 hits for "transvestitism", but 45,600 hits for "transvestism". -- Kimiko 09:34, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The article still says 'transvestitism' everywhere---is this is a typo, or did Magnus whatever his name is in the first paragraph actually use the word 'transvestitism', and the modern variant of that turned out to be 'transvestism'? Grendelkhan 15:33, 2004 Apr 18 (UTC)
Hirschfeld used transvestititsm, and the word, as the google count shows, is still in use; in fact, scientific books usually still use "transvestitism", which is why the text itself should not change. "Transvestitsm" is an English shortening of the word; and I am not at all happy with the change. A simple redirect from "transvestism" would have done perfectly. -- AlexR 19:38, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for this brave attempt at explaining something I have always been confused about......and I am sorry to say, I still am. All I know is I'm straight and I love dressing up in my girlfriend's undies for sexual pleasure. As soon as it is over, I quickly get changed. So what am I? A transvestite or a cross dresser or a fetishist? User:220.237.47.197

Given the life stories of people I know, it could be about everything, including full-scale transsexualism; since many transsexual women used something like "I am just a transvestite/fetishist" as an excuse/explanation for their behaviour -- denial is not just a river in Egypt. However, that would be rather rare, I'd say, compared to those people who act like you do and never consider changing gender role. If it's just sexual pleasure, I'd tend towards transvestic fetishism, if there is anything like a temporary switch of gender role, even if one is alone, involved, I'd say cross-dressing. (Transvestite has so many contradictory meanings that is has become quite useless.) But it is often very hard to draw a line there, precisely because many people feel more comfortable believing they are "just" a fetishist instead of having to face any gender issues. (Having transitioned myself, albeit in the other direction, and having worked in counceling for years, I get the point.)
If you are confused or even disturbed by your behaviour, I recommend looking for a support group, if you are lucky, there is one in your area (try one for cross-dressers or similar; not all transsexual support groups are exactly welcoming towards non-transsexual trans*-people). Also a good therapist might help - unfortunately, they are hard to come by. There are also many online forums where you can meet people who are in exactly the same situation as you are, and communicating helps a lot. -- AlexR 7 July 2005 11:24 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The idea that gender is "assigned" rather than an intrinsic property is a bias, and does not confirm to neutral point of view. User:71.243.30.120

Uhm, sorry, but that is the very definition of gender, that it is social, and not biological. Now, if we are talking about gender identity, that may be different (subject of much debate), but at that point, we are not. Hence, revert.
Also, kindly sign your entries next time, with -- ~~~~, and it is quite customary to first raise an issue on the talk page, and then, if no consensus can be found, put in NPOV tags. -- AlexR 07:15, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Alex, no consensus here. The distinction between sex and gender is not uniformly defined. It is highly controversial and the cause of much debate. Therefore idea that gender is "assigned" is indeed a bias and does not conform to neutral point of view. NPOV warning added. Also NB that I am not the original editor who originally marked this article NPOV. Rockcutter88 16:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with Alex, however, the Wikipedia policy of NPOV means just the opposite of your usage. NPOV implies that all views (supportable with facts and citations) should be expressed. You are suggesting that because it is biased (or that you think that it may be), that it should not be represented, and that isn't necessarily true. Editors need not gain consensus, it is only something that they should attempt to do. If an editor can support a point of view with facts, then thay can add that to the article, and others don't have to agree with the position for it to be allowable. That is to say, we aren't trying to write articles with one view that many have consensus on, we are writing articles that may have many factual views.

The current article does not have a specified POV regarding gender as far as I can tell. Atom 16:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Issues with uploading Pic for this Article

I have been informed that certain editors are either continuously attempting to add images to this article for an illustration of what Transvestites appear to be, and that other editors are deleting these images as well. I hope to end this on-going problem by simply suggesting that perhaps adding an image of a celebrated or world-recognised transvestite would be more suitable. I give the example such as the notable drag queen: Divine aka Harris Glen Milstead who featured in several films, including those of John Waters and has been recognised by the world as a prominent figure in promoting the Transvestite scene. Also another example could be the image of Tim Curry in the cult film The Rocky Horror Picture Show as Dr. Frank-N-Furter - these would be suitable examples of drag queens, even the image of Peter Burns from Dead or Alive etc... Hope this can clear up some of the issues on this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Piecraft (talk • contribs) 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunatley, these picture would only enhance the stereotypes of what the public percieves "transvestites" to be and look like -- the article quite clearly states that the term is used much, much more broadly. Hence the addition of such a picture would have to be balanced by others, illustrating the other uses. I might add that there was most likely just one editor who wanted to add equally one-sided pics to this article, so this is hardly a widespread problem. -- AlexR 11:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I understand your point AlexR, however, I would not consider the drag queen Divine to be a stereotype of what the public percieves "transvestites" to be seeing as he has been recognised as a role model amongst the Transvestite community and was a dominant figure in promoting cross-dressing and Transvestitism. I would at least consider if anything placing an exemplary image of what a Transvestite appears to be, regardless of what the general public concerns are. If we provide too much in terms of relative neutrality to a subject than we would have a difficult time placing a defined explanation whether it be an image or article that follows a topic. Piecraft 12:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

It would be useful to have photographs from cross-dressers to illustrate the incredible variety of people who are doing it, as well as the different styles of dress. The heterosexual cross-dressers generally wear women's clothing for their own enjoyment. Since many of them never go out in drag in public, they enjoy sharing pictures of themselves. Because of copyright concerns, it would be important for them to release their photos to the public domain. The incredible website www.pettipond.com has a number examples of cross-dressers who have submitted color photographs, so it's clear that there is great variety among the cross-dressers.Sallyrob 19:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal given names in Germany

Today, I changed the wording

Hirschfeld helped people to achieve the very first name changes (as first names had and have to be gender specific in Germany)

so that it instead read

Hirschfeld helped people to achieve the very first name changes (legal given names were and are required to be sexually distinct in Germany)

Alex R then changed it to this:

Hirschfeld helped people to achieve the very first name changes (legal given names were and are required to be gender specific in Germany)

My understanding is that, when a baby gets its name in Germany, the law requires the name to match the baby's biological sex. I think that this sex is determined on the basis of anatomy, not chromosomes: it is independent of gender roles, but is specifically about anatomical sex. If this is how the law is there, then the law requires sexual distinction of names—or sexual specificity—, but not gender specificity.

What are the details of this German law? I think those details would determine the best wording. I would accept "sex-specific"; but "gender-specific" I would accept only if, for example, the law worked like "Ah, I see: your newborn child has a penis and testes, and no female genitalia; but you intend to raise this child to act and dress femininely. You may give the child a feminine name, then."

Thoughts?

President Lethe 01:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

How about facts instead of thoughts? The first name in Germany has to be gender specific because it has to match the entry of "m" or "f" in the birth certificate, something that is called legal gender. It is not sex-specific insofar, as that in any cases of doubt, doctors get to decide which letter goes in there -- and as the history (and unfortunately, the present, too) of intersex people shows that there are lots of factors in that decision, and a childs "true sex" is not always the first among them. That is, insofar as a "true sex" can be determined at all, which is decidedly questionable in many cases. Hence the law that regulates those things has a provision for intersex people that they can change that legal gender, without any medical procedures which are often (and incorrectly) called "sex change". Since, therefore, it is not necessarily coupled with "sex", it is "gender", hence gender-specific.
Since 1980, there is a law regulating the name change and change of legal gender for transsexual people, however, this is not relevant to that paragraph, since it was long before Hirschfeld's time. Guess what, though - the very existance of this law again makes it clear that the first name has to match the legal gender, and well, if it is just a legal thing, it is obviously gender, not sex. The one explicit exception are people who just change their first name, but not (yet or permantly) their legal gender. Given that this is stated very explicitly as an exception, the rule is obviously matching "m" of "f" entry with name, not any sex-determining factors. Which, BTW, is the way things are handled not just in Germany, but all countries where the Code Napoleon was the basis of law. -- AlexR 10:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
To the opening question: I asked "What are the details of this German law?", which was a request for facts. I asked for thoughts on the facts. You seem to have given some facts as well as your thoughts on them. Thanks!
Explained in more detail, your gender wording makes sense to me. I'll add the hyphen.
President Lethe 14:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Makes me wonder if we need legal gender or something similar. We have Legal aspects of transsexualism, but that is not quite the same thing. -- AlexR 16:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jokes about transvestites

I've committed myself to being best man at a transvestite wedding. Oh God. Has anyone got any good transvestite jokes? Websites? I am Shtove 19:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a joke might not be appropriate... Mugaliens 13:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit

I removed "homosexuality" from the sentance which claimed that homosexuality is associated with transvestism. In fact, there's less incidence of transvestism among gays and lesbians than throughout the general public, and most gay men aren't into drag queens. Mugaliens 13:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it was badly worded. I don't think it meant to say that homosexuality was correlated with people who cross-dress (just as cross-dressing doesn't imply fetishism or transsexualism, either). I think it's saying that these concepts are nonetheless associated with the word by people (even if it isn't true) - remember, this is an article primarily about the word "transvestite", not people who cross-dress. I'll try to reword it. Mdwh 15:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Is that better? Also compare with "transvestite behaviour ... was until the 1960s seen an expression of homosexuality or suppressed homosexual impulses." - even though here also, people who cross-dress weren't necessarily homosexual. Mdwh 15:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the historical stats reveal, but the current surveys reveal that more than 90% of all crossdressers are heterosexual. Most remain married, with families, understanding wives, etc. The earlier accounts were largely based on supposition by the "experts," who've since been proven horribly wrong by detailed statistical sampling of the individuals in question. Mugaliens 23:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does this mean?

I am confused. The opening sentence of this article is, "The term transvestism has undergone several changes of meaning since it was coined in the 1910s, and it is still used in all of these meanings except the very first one." However, as far as I can tell from the article, the very first meaning of the term was dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex. It doesn't mean that any more? What does it mean if it doesn't mean that? What are the other meanings? I've read the whole article, and I can't find any definitions other than that one offered. Can someone help? Should the first sentence be rewritten, or removed? It isn't often that an encyclopedia article leaves me more confused than I was when I started reading it!

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help clear things up. 74.131.22.105 23:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been researching the subject for years and have found that the terms have long been mixed up. Some female impersonators told them that they considered themselves drag queens. Since many female impersonators today are gay, the straight men who cross-dress are trying to separate themselves from that group. It's interesting that some of the most famous female impersonators in the days of vaudeville went to great lengths to stress that they were really very manly when they weren't wearing women's clothes. Anyway, the basic term for cross-dressing comes from the 1910 writings when the term "transvestism" was first used. Today, most gay men who wear women clothes use the term "drag queen" and most straight men who wear women clothes use the term "cross-dresser." One also sees the term "female impersonator" used, especially in the performing arts. There's often been debate as to whether some of the actors who dressed as women really enjoyed it or not. It has been complicated today because some men have said they cross-dress both on and off the stage or screen. Sallyrob 17:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drag queens

The drag queen section should probably be moved to Drag queen. It was only started ([1]) with someone who seemed to think transvestism could only mean transvestic fetishism, trying to claim "Drag queens are neither transvestites or crossdressers", which is not always true since the words transvestite and cross-dresser sometimes are used to include drag queens

Also note that the claim they are usually straight is contradicted by the drag queen article. Mdwh 02:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC) My conversations with female impersonators led me to discover that many of them are gay, but there are some who are straight, too. Most said they don't experience any particular pleasure in impersonating women, but they obviously enjoy the performance aspects of portraying women.Sallyrob 17:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

There probably should at least be a cross reference here, to refer readers to the article on drag queens. So many of the terms referring to various forms of cross-dressing or transvestism are misunderstood or confused. The textbooks on the subject begin with the original term "transvestism," which probably covers all forms of cross-dressing by homosexuals and heterosexuals. In explaining these things, it is difficult to be really specific without including material to could be offensive to some readers and inappropriate to others, especially children. Given the fact that some of my friends told me they began cross-dressing as children, it's obvious that there are many children who might read this material wondering if they are unique or different. My own research, mostly for the Fort Wayne, Indiana, Rainbow Reader, led me to discover that some children, especially boys, cross-dressed for a time and then gave it up. Others continued to cross-dress as adults, especially if their parents told them not to do it! Sallyrob 17:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

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