Talk:Transsexual sexuality

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[edit] Starting this article

Ok I have created this article to act as an umbrella for articles that deal with issues of transsexual and transgender sexuality. I have also thrown in issues of race and transsexuality for compleatness. It is rough. Probably ugly to read but that is where you come in. Edit this. Nominate it for deletion or merger. Get involved! If you are reading this and you are transsexual realize the next time one of us makes news somewhere and a lazy reporter googles this topic this webpage will be near the top of the list.

I realize that much has been written on transgender and homosexuality but there is a problem with that. "Transgender" includes many many people who are not transsexual. This article is to focus on the issues relating to the sexuality of transsexuals. The way pychoogist try to categorize transsexuals by their sexual preference. The way race plays a role in the manifestation of GID. They way class plays a role in the expression of GID. Basically I envision writing a short blurb, or abstract, about each article linked to this one.

This is in an effort to separate transsexuals and transsexualtiy from the discussion of braoder TG issues. Issues which while largely the same as TS issues are not identical to them. --Hfarmer 14:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I will have to very much agree. While on the surface someone would see a crossdresser and me as both entirely masculine, and wearing the other gender's clothing (I haven't had a change to start hormones at this time.) I entirely do not relate to their experience, or expectations. At first I got on a forum for CDs, and I was just like, "Um... yeah... so, most of this doesn't really sound like anything I'm interested in at all..." So, it's good to have a base to start from for a fledgling TS to look through, and find a group of people who they actually DO fit in with, whether they are a "classic" transsexual or not. And it's great for us to dispell many of these myths and legends about us that are spread intentionally, or unintentionally by others. If knowledge and truth is power, then I want to make everyone powerful on this topic! --Puellanivis 17:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This article was full of typos and bad grammar, and unobjective language. I've edited most of it, and made a ton of changes here and there. I couldn't get to the last paragraph before I had an appointment, so it hasn't been editted yet.

Hopefully, the content is now more clear, readable, closer to a quality article, and more objective. Oh, and I toned down some sentences and/or paragraphs to make them less harsh. --Puellanivis 17:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

D'oh! Forgot to log in. 207.108.217.94 was me. Andrea Persephone 22:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I added back the cleanup tag. This is still a poorly referenced, incoherent mess. Most of the information on different cultures and ethnicities has nothing to do with sexuality, but is about social roles and historical context of gender variance. I'll try to work on this periodically. It needs to be a historical overview of the clinical literature and the various terms and taxonomies that have been proposed. Jokestress 19:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What did I intend with this article

What i did not intend was a article about clinical things. What I wanted was just that an article about the way the sexuality of transsexuals has been percieved currently, historically and racially. I should also not forget the FtM's and how they are percieved. There are important. The heart of this matter this "TS sexuality" is that it is what makes people so uncomfortable with us as a whole. I have tried my best to capture that.

I will not say that the article is perfect but it is not a incoherent mess either. --Hfarmer 14:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I can see the part that links this topic to BBL theory and that whole mess that is psychology. As for the historical/ sociological part that seems ok. to me. It is referenced by way of the wikipedia articles it links to. Those are just as valid references as anything else in wikipedia. My hope is someone searching that term will hit this article and find that TS-sexuality is not a universally condemmed thing. That it is not a new post WWII invention of self hating gays either. Simply presenting some facts about a misunderstood phenomena. Nothing more than what the wikipedia is supposed to be about.--Hfarmer 14:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious beliefs on transsexual sexuality

Moving this original research here for discussion:

For as long as there have been people with sharp cutting objects there have at least been transsexuals. Due to this almost every religious belief system has had to deal with the subject. In most those who are born with ambiguous genitalia and those who's sexual ambiguity only shows latter through behavior are lumped together in a third sex. Well known examples would be the hijra of south Asia, the Two-Spirits of Native American culture, and the Mukhannathun of Arab/muslim society. Unlike the more modern scientific theories on gender identity these religious beliefs attribute the phenomena to the will of god or many gods. This is not limited to oriental or pre-Colombian religions. Islam and Christianity take basically the same , accepting view of Transsexuality as these other religions (see Matthew 19:12. [1] [2]. Acceptance of a given transsexual in these religions is usually dependent on behavior which is normative to their new gender. Acceptance of anyone by any religion is conditional on certain behavior, so religion requiering gender normative behavior would not be surprising.

None of this is specifically about transsexualism. Many religions have indeed specifically discussed transsexualism, but ancient cultures were not defining them as such. To conflate eunuchs and transsexuals is inaccurate and POV.

Europe: Vatican: A Ban On Transsexuals By JASON HOROWITZ (NYT) February 1, 2003 Catholic news agency Adista publishes what it says is confidential Vatican document, signed by Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo, banning transsexuals from religious orders and forcing any clergy members who undergo sex change to be expelled

Kajillions more specifically about transsexuals and sex. We need to stick to this and not original research. If you have a reliable source that says the Bible or Koran specifically mentions transsexual sexuality, let's see the citation. Matthew 19:12 is not about transsexuals or sex. Jokestress 01:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually what you are looking for is written in to the section by way of a pointer to the word used to refer to transsexuals in the era of muhammad. Come on now asking for the english word transsexual to appear in a 1500 year old Arabic text would be unreasonable. This word is referenced in the hadiths two of which can be easily found online but there are many others. USC-MSA compendium of Muslim Text: Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 32:Clothing (Kitab Al-Libas),Number 4095 and USC-MSA compendium of Muslim Text: Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 41:General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab),Number 4910
It is noteable the various translations given for the word "Mukhannath" in one place it is given as hermaprodite in antother "eunuch" Which in my opinon, the Ayatollah Kohmeni's opinion, and the opinion of the Scholars at the Al-Azhar in Cairo, is misleading. Meant to not offend the modern American "Judeo-Chrisian" evangelical ethics. Arabic has a different word for a simple eunnuch and a different word for an intersexed individual. While the word " Mukhannath" well this link gives a better discussion than I do and even cites Muslim religious sources Trust Islam message board by "al-Rumiyah" Who cites "*Taken from Al-Jinn by Ahmad H. Sakr, but I have read this from several other sources as well including Ibn Taymiyyah."
Most useful to this discourse "al-Rumiyah" who I cited above qotes the following and gives sources...
"Ibn `Abd al-Barr said, probably in reference to the two types of mukhannath also mentioned by An-Nawawi : "The Mukhannath is not only the one who is known to be promiscuous. The mukhannath is (also?) the one who looks so much like a woman physically that he resembles women in his softness, speech, appearance, accent and thinking. If he is like this, he would have no desire for women and he would not notice anything about them. This is one of those who have no interest in women who were permitted to enter upon women." (Al-Mughni, 7/463; al Sharh al Kabeer `ala Matan al Muqni ยด, 7/347 - 348)
And Ibn Qudaamah mentioned : "[...] or a mukhannath who feels no desire (towards women) , the ruling that applies to such a "man" is the same as the ruling that applies to close relatives (mahram) regarding looking at women, because Allah says (the scholar cites Surah 24:31)..." (I added links to the articles on wikipedia about "An-Nawawi" and the "munkhannath".)
Looking in my Quran Sura 24:31 Translates to.... Tell the believing women to lower their eyes, guard their private parts, and not display their charms and cover their bosoms with their veils and not to show their finery except to their husbands or their fathers or their fathers in law, their sons or step-sons, brothers, or their brothers sons, or thier women attendants or captves, or male attendants who do not have any need (for women), or boys not yet aware of sex. They should not walk stamping their feet lest they make known what they hide of their ornaments. O believers, turn to God, every one of you, so that you may be successful. ("Al-QUR'AN, A Contemporary Translation" by Ahmed Ali).
God sure speaks in long sentences. Sounds much better in Arabic.
So there you have it, references to the Munkhanath in the Hadiths from wich Sunni muslims get their information on the soona (the prohpets way of life) and alusions to the same in the Qur'An. I have also provided sources for the literal translation of the word "Munkhanath" which seem to make pretty clear that it means transsexual Like I said it would be unreasonable to find the word transsexual in 2006 english in the Arabic Quran from ~650 AD. Given what I have shown here I feel satisfied that there is sound reason to reinstate the paragraph. If nothing more is done by the time I wake up in the moring I will do so. --Hfarmer 03:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC) (edited for clairity --Hfarmer 04:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC))
Such is the way the Islamic text mention transexuals and deals with their sexuality. These are some of the Kajillions of sources that I got that paragraph from. I cited the Wikipedia article on the topics so there is no need to replicate the links here.
It seems that what you call original research I call a summary or secondary research as defined in the link just given. Tell me that such does not sound like what the creation of a wikipedia article is. This is above and beyond the simple collection of quotes from others. It should be a synthesis of informaiton gathered by others "original researhers" which the secondary researcher composes into a (hopefully) coherent, and brief topical review. I hope you see what I mean. --Hfarmer 04:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The concept of original research is discussed at WP:NOR, where I have referred you many times already. This sentence is a textbook case of original research: "For as long as there have been people with sharp cutting objects there have at least been transsexuals." What is your source for this statement? If you wish to include information on the Quran in this article, you need to cite sources like the Salon article above which makes direct reference to transsexualism and Islam. Not eunuchs and Islam, not a third sex and Islam, but transsexualism and Islam, particularly transsexual sexuality. Same goes for any other faith. Here's more original research: "Islam and Christianity take basically the same , accepting view of Transsexuality as these other religions." Are you kidding me? What's your source for this easily refutable original research? Jokestress 07:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I will post the following version of this article at ~8AM CDST

For as long as there have been people with sharp cutting objects there have at been people we would now describe, in English, as transsexuals. At first before synthetic hormones and modern surgery castration at a young age was all that could be done (see: Wikipedia:Castration). Which would make one a " eunuch" Due to these facts almost every religious belief system has had to deal with the subject of gender variant people. In most those who are born with ambiguous genitalia and those who's sexual ambiguity only shows latter through behavior are lumped together in a third sex. Well known examples would be the hijra of south Asia, the Two-Spirits of Native American culture, and the Mukhannathun[3][4] of Arab/muslim society. Unlike the more modern scientific theories on gender identity these religious beliefs attribute the phenomena to the will of god or many gods. This is not limited to oriental or pre-Colombian religions. Islam and Christianity take basically the same , accepting view of Transsexuality as these other religions (see Matthew 19:12. [5] [6]. Acceptance of a given transsexual in these religions is usually dependent on behavior which is normative to their new gender. Acceptance of anyone by any religion is conditional on certain behavior, so religion requiering gender normative behavior would not be surprising.

Now I have focused on the Muslim text because it is what I am most familliar with. For the two spirits the tie in is self evident I hope. Not to mention for the hijiri. We have to write every article onthis subject matter as if it would be the first and last thing the reader will see on them mater.--Hfarmer 04:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You are conflating a lot of things that are not strictly transsexualism. Since transsexualism as a concept did not exist until about 100 years ago, it's not really accurate to conflate earlier forms of gender variance. What is the definition you are using for the term "transsexual"? Jokestress 05:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
To me a transsexual is simply one who was presumed to have one gender and wants to be a member of antother gender. This transsexual would then use the best medicine available to make that transition happen.
Until 100 years ago that best medicie was castration at or at least before the end of puberty. So that the eunnuch will remain soft, voice will not break, no facial hair etc. Castration when young was basically the only way to go untill 100 years ago. Technology changed wich changed everything about this subjet. The state of mind of the people who had themselves castrated and then lived as females could not be so different from ours.
To me the only difference is that these days we chemically castrate then live as females. Then only latter do we have the SRS operation to physically castrate us.
Do you see where I, and others who use such groups as examples of transsexuals though history, are comming from on this one?--66.92.130.180 23:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
If you want to use that definition, you need to cite a source first. Otherwise, as you note, that's your personal definition and not one based on a published source. What you describe is usually classified as transgenderism, and not all castration was carried out in the service of gender expression. Transsexualism is generally considered by historians to have begun at the start of the 20th century, with the advent of endocrinology and plastic surgery. It is a medicalized concept. What you describe are generally considered social constructions and not transsexualism. See Meyerowitz' 200 book How Sex Changed for the best overview of transsexualism in the United States. Jokestress 23:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I actually can cite a source for considering those individuals to be transsexual several in fact. First there is "The Transsexual Phenomena by Harry Benjamin, Appendix C by Richard Green M.D." in which he says...
Evidence for the phenomenon today called transsexualism can be found in records backward through centuries and spanning widely separated cultures. Classical mythology, classical history, Rennaissance, and nineteenth-century history along with cultural anthropology point to the widespread pervasiveness of the transsexual phenomenon.
The term "transsexual," being of comparatively recent origin, cannot be found in historical sources. Therefore, many inferences must be made in interpreting reference material. Even specific mention of "change of sex" may only imply a "change of dress" or the practice of genital homosexuality, the fuller assumption by the individual of cross-gender identity not being apparent. In the following references, the criterion of cross-gender identity is met.
Then Dr. Green goes on to list many many examples. Now as far as I am concerned I see no reason that the secondary research of Dr Green in compiling his listing is any more valid that mine. But If you must I will place a link to this in the paragraph as a supporting reference. Ok. --Hfarmer 14:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned, an overview of cross-gender identities and expressions already exists at transgender and doesn't need to be duplicated here, except to the extent that it explicitly discusses sexuality. You are welcome to start transgender sexuality for a less specific overview, but this should stick to transsexuality per the article title. Jokestress 18:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
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