Talk:Transhumanism

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Contents

[edit] Archive

Archives of previous discussions can be found at:

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[edit] IMPORTANT: New Contributors

Having invested a lot of time and energy in editing the Transhumanism article, the primary contributors insist that all claims for and against transhumanism, or otherwise, be accurate, properly attributed, and well-referenced. We want the article to be the best possible resource for anyone (e.g. students, journalists, cultural critics) who is interested in the subject. Despite having conflicting views, we all cooperated in an effort to make the article comprehensive, rigorous and stable enough for Featured Article status. Therefore, we recommend that you take the time to discuss any major addition or deletion of article content in this talk page before proceeding otherwise the article may be reverted to an older version. --Loremaster 00:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

While it is indeed an excellent article, I don't think any special procedures for handling future edits are warranted. I would worry about setting a precedent for other Featured Articles, some of which fall far below the quality standards set here (see the May 31 Nostradamus article for an example).--Chris 01:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't proposing any special procedure. I was simply pointing out something that is common sense on Wikipedia. --Loremaster 18:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links / See also

A comment from the Featured Article Candidate page:

There are 20 external links to organizztions not disccused in the article. I would like to see these dealt with within article or changed to See Also wikilinks to their corresponding articles. If they are not notable enough to have an article I wonder if we should be linking to them at all --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 17:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that something could be done to improve the External links section. However, according to a Wikipedia rule of thumb: 1) if something is in See also, try to incorporate it into main body 2) if something is in main body, it should not be in see also and therefore 3) good articles have no See also sections. --Loremaster 21:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

We should follow the Wikipedia:External links guidelines. --Loremaster 20:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding "See also" sections: I personally disagree with all three points listed above. Does anyone know if this is really a style guideline, or published "rule of thumb" of WP? I tried searching for "see also" on the Wikipedia:Manual of Style page and all I found was (guess what?) a "See also" section. People visiting an article are often going to be curious about what articles exist on related subjects, and aren't necessarily going to want to read the entirety of their current article looking for blue links. In short, I think this article should have a "See also" section. Comments?
KarlBunker 12:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm opposed to it. My recommendation regarding a "see also" section isn't an official Wikipedia guideline. As I said, its a rule of thumb for good articles which were recommended to us by two Wikipedia administrators. That being said, more often that not "see also" sections are used by people to put links to their pet articles which often have nothing to do with the subject of the article. --Loremaster 17:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not hearing any argument as to why it's a rule of thumb for good articles. I see it serving a purpose and I don't see how it does any harm. True, people might put junk in it, but in my experience that doesn't happen that much. (A "xxx in popular culture" section would be a whole 'nother story, or course.  :-)
KarlBunker 18:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
"See also" are a list, lists are worse then text. Wiki is not paper, we should have room to discuss all related issues, and "See also", which rarely discuss the linked items, give little indication why they are relevant. --Loremaster 16:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Loremaster on this one. Metamagician3000 02:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The External links section is becoming quite long. Should we consider deleting some possibly innappropriate links according to Wikipedia:External links guidelines. Also, should we consider updating the History section by mentioning of some of the para-transhumanist groups linked to in this section. --Loremaster 07:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

Is there currently a Transhumanist userbox? There was one previously, that I was using, but it was deleted in one of those random userbox deletion sprees. Thanks.

MSTCrow 00:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no template - which I think is appropriate as I think that all such userboxes expressing adherence to a religious, political , philosophical, etc., belief should gradually be removed from template space. However, if you want I can help you userfy the old box, or you can feel free to copy the code for the box that merely expresses interest in transhumanism from my userpage. Metamagician3000 02:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

How is expressing interest different from expressing support? Oh, and if you look at the tail end of my userboxes, you'll that I'm strong supporter of userspace expression.
MSTCrow 02:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There's obviously a huge difference between expressing interest in something and supporting it. I am interested in many belief systems that I actually disagree with (not so much transhumanism, as it happens, since I have a lot of sympathy for it, blah, blah). Anyway, this is not the place to debate userbox policy. I told you my view and offered in good faith to help you. Do you want my help or not? Metamagician3000 07:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There is this user box available: {{User Singularitarian}} Morphh 12:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Like Metamagician, User:Khat Wordsmith has found a way to have a transhumanist user box. --Loremaster 00:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I made one myself, currently I'm the only one using it: {{User:Joffeloff/Userbox/Transhumanism}} --Joffeloff 15:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

It was suggested to me that Micheal Gibb's Genetic Destiny: Future DNA testing capabilities may lead to difficult personal and societal decisions (http://www.michaelgibbs.com/medical_art/images/graphics/gibbs_11.jpg) would be perfect for the Gattaca argument section. However, we would need to find the appropriate rationale to justify its use in an article on transhumanism. As for Peter Pan, using an ad that epitomizes our culture's obsession with youth would be quite appropriate (http://www.ahavaus.com/site/images/anti-aging_main_img.jpg). --Loremaster 23:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[...]The Genetic Destiny image is nice, but as an artistic metaphor is less likely to qualify for fair use than book covers [...]. The Ahava ad is great, but I doubt whether an ad would qualify for fair use.--StN 00:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The Foreign Policy magazine cover for the issue on the world's most dangerous ideas which nominated transhumanism (http://www.bonusmags.com/mags/250_foreign_policy.jpg) would be ideal for the Brave New World section. --Loremaster 22:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Since this Wikipedia article is not about Foreign Policy magazine, nor about the WMDI feature in that magazine, but just refers to what one contributor placed in that category, I think this doesn't come under fair use.--StN 23:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
*sigh* I know but can someone confirm this? --Loremaster 00:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it can be "confirmed" without an actual court case (fair use is nebulous that way), but I can offer agreement with the opinion. I don't think a valid claim of fair use can be made here for using magazine covers to illustrate the concept of transhumanism in general, these covers should only be used when they're actually the subject of the article they're used in. I'm removing Image:Posthuman Future.jpg and Image:Holy Tech.jpg. Bryan 09:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I can accept the removal of the Holy Tech image but I think we can find a way to keep the Posthuman Future image by discussing Peter Monaghan's 2002 article "Francis Fukuyama on the Posthuman Future" for the Chronicle of Higher Education magazine. --Loremaster 10:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps. But as things stand the article doesn't, so it's definitely not fair use. I'm taking it back out again, please don't put it back without establishing the claim to fair use more clearly. Bryan 00:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Oooops! I knew I forgot to do something. Thank you for reminding me. --Loremaster 01:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please work on clarifying the fair use rationale in order to put back the much-loved Posthuman Future image? --Loremaster 06:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Since we've added the Primo Posthuman image, we don't need the Posthuman Future image anymore. --Loremaster 19:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I also removed Image:Transhuman Space Cover.jpg. Its fair use rationale is "to illustrate an article discussing the book in question", which this is not. Bryan 10:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The Fiction and Art section does discuss the Transhuman Space sourcebook. --Loremaster 10:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The Fiction and Art section mentions the Transhuman Space sourcebook. This is the sum total of the content I could find here: "Transhuman Space is an RPG, set in the year 2100 when humanity has begun to colonize the Solar System, where the pursuit of transhumanism is now in full swing, as more and more people struggle to reach a fully posthuman state." This article is 74 kilobytes long, a single line can't possibly make it into "an article discussing the book in question." Bryan 00:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
OK. I am willing to let go of the Transhuman Space Cover image. --Loremaster 06:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole direction of Wikipedia policy is to get tougher and tougher about fair use images. I don't necessarily like this from an aesthetic point of view, but I think we should all acknowledge it and that there are reasons for it. Based on that understanding, I'm not going to be dying in a ditch about keeping particular images. We might have to sacrifice something in aesthetics for the greater good. Metamagician3000 02:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primo Posthuman

Re: the illustration at the top of the article ([1]), where did this version come from? It appears to be a modified version of the original "Primo Posthuman" image, labeled "Trans-Post-Human" and "Primo Posthuman HUMAN 2." Yet it's not obvious on the credited artist's site; is this really a new version or some sort of hacked copy? The text isn't clear enough to read, either. --Kris Schnee 11:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a version created and uploaded by Natasha Vita-More herself. --Loremaster 16:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the original was restored. --Loremaster 13:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Weird. Was anyone able to figure out what the difference was? I couldn't read the text on the second version to tell. --Kris Schnee 00:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
No I haven't bothered to look into it. --Loremaster 00:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Young Family

Image:The Young Family

The following is a statement by Patricia Piccinini about the work:

The Young Family (2002-3) presents a transgenic creature. The inspiration behind this work is the expectation that we have of growing human organs in other species, especially pigs. Rather than make a didactic image that argues for or against these technologies, I want to address the reality of these possible creatures in a very compassionate way. The question I raise, that I am interested in, relates to the distinction between human and animal characteristics: Not so much her humanity, but the 'animalness' in us. Genetically, we share traits with her, but also we share the fundamental trait of looking after offspring. In am interested in the kinds of ways that we look at the many ethical issues that surround medical technologies. There are two kinds of people who are thinking about these issues; those who are objective observers, and those that are actually affected by the issues, such as somebody who has a family member who is affected by a disease. These two viewpoints are often very different. It is impossible to be objective about these issues when you are emotionally involved, but I don't think that is a bad thing. These are not simple issues with easy answers: It is one thing to talk about an idea and another to be confronted by the emotional reality of a creature, and yet another to be in need of what that creature might provide.

I've edited the image caption accordingly. --Loremaster 01:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This image seems to contradict it's own Wikipedia:Fair use tage. It is not:
  • Used in an article to illustrate the three-dimensional work of art in question,
  • Used in an article to discuss the artistic genre or technique of the work of art
  • Used in an article to discuss the artist or the school to which the artist belongs.
(The above range for the "Statue" tage)
It may need a better tage (if there is one). Fountains of Bryn Mawr 04:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the tag. --Loremaster 06:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The new tag suffers from the same problem as the old one. It does seem not match any Fair Use rational to allow that image to be used in this article. That image is copyrighted; it should only (maybe) be used in an article about the artist and only to illustrate something specific about that artists work. If the artist is releasing the copyright to that derivative image then it needs some kind of tag that states that (I am not even sure if there is a "release" tag, last time I checked there wasn't one, but that was a while ago). Fountains of Bryn Mawr 19:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Although I've changed the tag yet again, if an approppriate tag is so important for you, why don't you work with us to find it? The author has made it clear that she doesn't mind this promotional image being used by Wikipedia in articles that are not about her or the art in question. --Loremaster 22:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

An appropriate tag is not so much "important to me" as it is Wikipedia policy. I can help depending on the amount of free time I have... and at this point my help is limited to pointing out a problem and not immediately tagging the image for deletion (something I may still do since the current tag demands it). It’s up to an editor such as your self to make the decision (and find the appropriate tag) as to weather a copyrighted image even belongs on Wikipedia. Most times (and this may be a case in point) they do not belong. Again there is a problem because the "Rationale" at this point conflicts with the tags notice "NOTE: The following conditions must not include terms which restrict usage to educational or not-for-profit purposes or prohibit derivatives. Please list this image for deletion if they do." Fountains of Bryn Mawr 19:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of Wikipedia policy and what my responsabilities are as an image uploader. I just get slightly annoyed by people who have enough time to go around nitpicking articles rather than rolling up their sleeves and improving them. That being said, please explain to us how the new tag conflicts with the rationale provided. --Loremaster 19:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I just get slightly annoyed by people who have enough time to go around nitpicking articles rather than rolling up their sleeves and improving them. That’s why they invented talk pages and notice tags... some of us may have other stuff on our plates so we leave a notice as to a problem.
  • Tag: conditions must not include terms which restrict usage to educational or not-for-profit purposes or prohibit derivatives. i.e image must be totally free for everything including commercial and derivative artwork. The addition to the tag immediately conflicts with the tag.
  • Rationale #2 The material should not be used in a manner that would likely replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media. This blocks derivatives and again conflicts with the tag. Fountains of Bryn Mawr 19:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out. I understood the tag backwards and will therefore correct it. --Loremaster 00:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Image removed due to offensiveness

-- Please do not post this picture to this article again. It is irrelevant to the discussion and offensive. I realize you spent a lot of time on the picture, but please display it somewhere more appropriate. Thx.

Anonymous user 68.70.6.102, you have not provided a legitimate reason for removing The Young Family image from the Transhumanism article. First of all, the caption under the image clearly suggest the reasons why this image is relevant to a discussion of the transhumanist view of parahumans such as the ones depicted in this image. Second, although Wikipedia may have a policy against the display of images from shock sites, this image of an intentionally thought-provoking work of art (a version of which has been widely circulated in the media and also been used on street billboards) is tolerable regardless of how offensive you feel it is since it isn't pornographic, scatological or extremely violent in nature. Ultimately, if you continue removing this image from the Tranhumanism article, you will be reported to Wikipedia administrators. --Loremaster 11:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

--I have given you a legitimate reason, as have others. Do not threaten me. I understand that you need attention, but please seek it elsewhere. I have reported your abuse to the Wikipedia administrators.

LOL. I have explained why your reason is not legitimate. You have not refuted my explanation. I am restoring the image and will continue to do so indefinitely and, as always, I welcome the judgement of Wikipedia administrators. --Loremaster 12:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The offensiveness issue is irrelevant. There is nothing so extreme about the image as to raise a legitimate issue about it being hidden or whatever.
My concern is solely with the copyvio/fair use issue. I can't immediately see a basis for a workable fair use justification under the very strict standards that Wikipedia is trying to apply these days.
It's not just a question of relevance to the article (yes, it does have at least some relevance). Something more is required. The problem is that the article is not (even partly) about this art work or its creator. Nor is there a necessity to make it so in order to cover what the article needs to cover. Her work is related to transhumanism rather peripherally. Unless the copyright holder is prepared to release the image into the public domain or under an appropriate licence (covering derivative works as well as Wikipedia itself), I think the image will have to be removed from this article. Where there is an issue of this kind, the view from Jimbo in recent times, on my understanding, has been very much that we err on the side of deletion. It might be different if the article were the one about the artist. Metamagician3000 11:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Since the artist has released the image so that we can use it on any Wikipedia article, the dispute is settled in my humble opinion. --Loremaster 12:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
But has she released it under the GFDL? By all means let's get someone who is more expert about copyright policy, but my understanding is that we need the copyright owner not just to give permission for use in Wikipedia itself but in any derivative works that use Wikipedia (with appropriate attribution) under the GFDL. That's the point of the GFDL. I'm not especially interested in removing it, because it is not an area that I like to get involved in, but I'm pretty sure that's what the admins who do involve themselves in copyright issues will be saying. Metamagician3000 11:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to contact her to resolve the issue once and for all. --Loremaster 18:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

--I agree this picture is gross and has nothing to do with transhumanism. Please do not put this picture back in this article.

Your opinion would have more weight if you had posted it while logged in Wikipedia. Regardless, as explained above, the grossness of the image is not a legitimate reason to remove it from the article. Many transhumanists advocate the biological uplift of animals, which includes the creation of self-aware human-animal hybrids like the ones in that image. Since the relevancy of this image to transhumanism is clear, it will be restored every time you or someone else tries to remove it. --Loremaster 20:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion would have more weight if you used your real name "Loremaster". Since this image has nothing to do with transhumanism, it will be removed every time you or one of your sockpuppets tries to post it.
Wikipedia does not require that people use their real name in order for them to be able to preserve their privacy. However, a Wikipedia user account, regardless of the name you use, does contribute to a culture of accountability. Regarless, you leave me no choice but to request tha the article be semi-protected to prevent you from removing this image without just cause as you have done. --Loremaster 21:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

--We HAVE given you just cause for removing this picture Loremaster, you just don't like the reason. This is not your personal webpage, please do not post offensive material here. Personally I don't have a problem with your other criticisms on Transhumanism in general and I don't care about those posts, but this picture is just disgusting and has nothing to do with Transhumanism. Please leave it out of your posts. Thank you.

I don't plan to jump in the discussion but I did want to point out this policy: Wikipedia is not censored. Morphh (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out. --Loremaster 19:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Chicago Manual Style (CMS): aging. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aging (accessed: February 19, 2007).

is there a reason to prefer the more unusual style? Whateley23 11:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article has an article on this topic using the so-called unusual style. See Ageing. --Loremaster 12:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
so long as you have a reason. it still looks wrong. Whateley23 09:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you make your case on the Talk:Ageing that the title of that article should be “aging” rather than “ageing”. If you succeed in convincing people to do it, I would immediately change the spelling here. --Loremaster 10:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last words?

Despite continuing to tweak the article from time to time, I don't think there is anything major left to do beyond improving articles that are related to Transhumanism. --Loremaster 15:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

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