Talk:Tradesman

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You have new messages (last change).

I've just re-written the page, as I felt it gave the impression that trades were entirely confined to construction. Perhaps my submission features too heavily on matters already described in Apprenticeship and Guild. I've briefly gone into history, which should probably include a bit more detail (citations of early evidence of formal trade training, etc.) or perhaps be moved to a new page.

Also, while I've added a few trades to the list on the bottom of the page, it still needs expanding.

Yizzik 26th May, 2005

[edit] Merge - Journeyman

Tradesman is the common usage in Australia. Not sure about elsewhere. There is no article on "trade" as in occupation. There is a List of occupations. Is there a more gender neutral term, Tradesperson?

Paul foord 23:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • In principle, a journeyman is a tradesman with the requisite qualifications. In Canada, not all tradespeople are journeymen. That term is reserved for people with formal qualifications who have followed an apprenticeship and/or passed an exam. So we have not only journeymen (or journeypersons) in the construction and metalworking trades, but also journeymen cooks, automobile mechanics, hairdressers, etc. In terms of usage, I don't know about other countires, but "Tradespeson" in the singular and "tradespeople" in the plural are quite common. As to the proposed merge, I think the articles should be kept apart, but I have no strong feelings as long as the material in the journeyman article is covered in the Tradesmas/Tradesperson/Tradespeople article. Luigizanasi 06:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I would vote against a merger of the two pages. Although the terms might be used interchangeably nowadays, I think "journeyman" has a very distinct historical meaning which should not be diluted by a more generalised modern term. I think it is a valid purpose of an encyclopaedia to explain the meaning and context of historical terms. Bluewave 15:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I also vote against combining. I'm a Journeyman Toolmaker and from my vantagepoint it isn't a term, it's a title like a 4-yr degree nurse is RN. While tradesman applies to anyone working in a field, a Journeyman has covered ground in the field.

People don't 'become' a journeyman by working in a field for 20 years any more than a person becomes an RN by working 20 years in a hospital. My apprenticeship was 4 semesters of college plus rotations through over 30 machines or processes such as heat treating and welding. And my Indentured Servitude contract still contained the 1800's language, stating I couldn't buy property or leave the state without written consent from my "Master."-- at which point my future supervisor repeated several times they NEVER enforce that and don't even care.

In my world it isn't history, it's a diploma worth about $5 per hour more. --Lynn Hartwig, Milwaukee WI

I also feel that journeyman and tradesperson are not the same thing. The world journeyman might refer to the mostly medeval tradition of "gradueted" apprentices, to go travelling or journeying, in order to gather experience. To day the only rememberance of this traditon is a guild(?) of german carpenters that wear traditional clothes and travel around for a set period of time after graduation from their master.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.197.212.163 (talk • contribs) 08:28, 22 January 2006.

  • It took me a while to work out why on earth you'd want to merge the two articles, until I realised that "tradesman" has a completely different meaning in US English and British English. This should be taken into account if the articles are merged:
(OALD dictionary:
"trades•man noun (pl. -men /mn/)
1 a person whose job involves going to houses to sell or deliver goods
2 (especially BrE) a person who sells goods, especially in a shop/store shopkeeper
3 (especially NAmE) a skilled person, especially one who makes things by hand
Saint|swithin 13:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Ah! This debate suddenly makes sense! Bluewave 08:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Here in California, USA a tradesman is an individual involved in a trade, such as a carpenter, mason, HVAC tech, etc. A journeyman is a tradesman who has become highly skilled in the trade after serving an apprenticeship. I receive my information from being certified by the state of California as a journeyman tool and die maker.

I would look into more detail about the possibility of a tradesman being a person who could trade a specialized service for other goods. As where a journeyman is the same type of individual who has traveled and learned many aspects of the craft. The idea of a journeyman is not to stay in one spot (or position) and learn a single detail, but to travel and learn many. I vote against a merge as the two have historical meaning that seperat the two. I have never heard of a 'tradesperson' so if the term is new for gender reasons, it should be noted as such for NPOV. I already forgot 04:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Don't merge: Distinctly seperate meanings to me. Considering the hstorical usage of the term journeyman, regional usage could differ greatly. Considering the above replies and the 6 months since the merge was suggested, I feel that the debate has run it's course. I'll close it now. — Graibeard (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tradesperson?? err no

Tradesperson is not a word in the English langauge, it isn't even a colloquelisim (err spell?) or a slang word so this article is in the wrong place. I propose a move back to Tradesman which is the correct term. --Errant Tmorton166(Talk)(Review me) 10:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a word.100110100 10:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
umm no it isn't I'm afraid, and it isn't in the OED either... In fact the top google reference is this article: [1] with all the other sites beign corporations desperate to look PC in light of government approach. By contrast look at the tradesman version - not only is that the correctspelling but also the widely accepted usage! --Errant Tmorton166(Talk)(Review me) 11:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This is no different than Journeyman, the term is much more commonly tradesman. Changing 'man' to 'person' can't fix issues of gender equality. The word 'man' is often used on the end of words like this, and today it doesn't neccessarily mean the term holds a specific gender to it. Its mearly part of the fact that English has some grammatical gender words which are "masculine", "feminine", or "neither". Its not a bad as the romance languages, like Spanish. In Spanish, just about everything is one or the other, and it defaults quite strictly to "masculine" in nature. For this, we unless the natural state of the English langauge moves strongly toward tradesperson, which, judging by google it does not yet, the article needs to move back to Tradesman. Kevin_b_er 22:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It's so funny cause I'm not even the person who titled this article, nor [as far as I know] the article was even moved ever. Feminist theory states that male dominant language results in a male dominant society. Here's another arguement: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. For languages like Spanish, that's their problem, of course I couldn't fix it, cause I don't know Spanish, but given that I could, I would. It's a correct spelling for males, not for females; believe me, females would be uncomfortable being called male or a man, nor would you likewise. It's not the widely accepted usage, especially for an encyclopedia it's not, but for the sexist, I could see how......100110100 07:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've found that tradesworker could also be used. Does that satisfy?100110100 11:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Sexism is a social problem not a grammatical one. In fact I have strong views on the subject but i want press them here. Suffice to say that insinuating that the word tradesman invites sexism isn't true. Sure the word came about because in the past it was men that worked but in modern times it applies generally. If this word is a problem we'll have to change all the others. For example these words are all mascualine:
  • Prime minister
  • Vicar
  • Train Driver
  • Guard
etc etc.
See English is a mascualine arientated language - most languages are. However those words and many others arn't under dispute. Even better example teacher, there are a much larger number of female teachers than male ones (at least at primary level) and yet there is not dispute over de-genderizing that word. Tradesworker is worse (also worker is a masculine word) as it suggests a job rather than a status!
I don't mind it staying as tradesperson for now, I can see that moving to tradesman could start another edit war, but I really don't like the term. --Errant Tmorton166(Talk)(Review me) 19:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
"Tradesperson" is not a word. The word does not exist in the English language. Wikipedia's job is to reflect the actual terminology, not to invent and promote new terms in the interest of pushing P.C. This article needs to be changed back to Tradesman a.s.a.p. Puppy Mill 00:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
My Art History Professor uses tradespeople, not tradesmen. Could we move the page to Tradesperson please?100110100 00:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The 4th Edition Concise Oxford Dictionary (only one I have to hand) defines tradespeople as the "families of tradesmen" so there is certainly scope for misunderstanding between different English usages. I think this is based on historical class predjudices in Britain, that distinguished between those people who were in professions from those "in trade". "Tradespeople" was therefore a slightly derogatory term, distinguishing that class from "professional people". Bluewave 08:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British English

Could editors who believe the phrase is used differently in the U.K. provide references. Also, would they review this website that clearly demonstrates the term is used in the same manner in the U.K. [2]. Thanks, Addhoc 23:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The OED is usually the definitive reference on the different regional variants of English. I'll check next time I'm in a library. My own (rather old) Concise Oxford gives "Tradesman: person engaged in trade, esp. shopkeeper". Chambers gives "Tradesman: a shopkeeper; a craftsman; a mechanic". English houses of the upper classes used to have (and probably still do) a "tradesman's entrance" where deliveries were received. It used to be quite common to see signs on gates into people's gardens saying "No Tradesmen - No Hawkers" (meaning "no door to door salesman"): Googling for this phrase throws up at least one example. I think British English includes the several meanings of tradesman: one engaged in a trade (a craftsman) or one engaged in trade (a shopkeeper, salesman or delivery person). Bluewave 08:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply and I agree with your conclusion. In my understanding the 'other' use of tradesman is slightly old fashioned, in the same way that 'hawker' is no longer in everyday use. Addhoc 13:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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