Talk:Toyota Celica

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Contents 1 Odd Use of Bold 2 NPOV: Japanese Mustang? 3 Ambiguous sales figures 4 Official link dead 5 Suggestion for re-wording. 6 3rd Generation (1982-1985) 7 The Celica & The 3SGE/3S-GTE 8 Too technical 9 Not just too technical, but technically inaccurate 10 Disambiguation plus another article 11 Power 12 Latin IPA

[edit] Odd Use of Bold

Throughout the article there is inconsistent and odd use of bold words. Is there any particular reason for this? --71.113.171.48 00:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV: Japanese Mustang?

This line seems to violate the NPOV rule: The Celica is well thought of among the street racing crowd as an easily customizable and easily controllable speed machine. It has often been described as a "Japanese Mustang" (after the Ford Mustang musclecar).

Any ideas? It seems like a comment like The Celica is popular among street-racing enthusiasts seems more appropriate. --Milkmandan 06:20, 2004 Aug 16 (UTC)

I agree. Besides, I think describing a Celica as a "Mustang" is kind of derogatory towards Celica :) That's totally my POV, of course.--Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 02:24, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

That is a derogatory point of view. Stick to the facts.

I think we've finally got this one figured out. Someone figured it out and changed the text (and I've gone ahead and reworked it a little bit to make it clearer)--the early liftback Celicas really did look like Mustangs. [1] This page still needs serious work, though. --Milkmandan 22:20, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

Made the Mustang bit to be as neutral as possible. Can we clear this bit now, or at least highlight other specific points which aren't neutral? --Dublet 20:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it was called a "Japanese Mustang" is a truly neutral point of view and not an opinion. Toyota did copy Ford Mustang styling right down to the triple tailights. Rear wheel drive, long hood, short deck. It's also been called a "Japanese Pony Car".

The first sentence in that statement is the one that may violate the NPOV rule.

75.36.10.114 08:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

My step dad was a Toyota car dealer and sold the fourth generation (1986-1989) Celicas. According to him the typpical buyer was a middle aged woman. // Liftarn

[edit] Ambiguous sales figures

As of November, 2004, just 8,216 Celicas had been sold.

What does this line mean? Celicas sold from Jan-Nov. 2004 totalled 8,216? November sales were 8,216? Sales of all Celicas has totalled 8,216? I realize the last one is contradictory, given the sentence directly before the one in question—but the statement doesn't provide a certain answer.

Oddly, I remember working on this text a while ago, and I didn't seem to have any trouble understanding exactly what was meant before. Maybe something was changed in this or the surrounding text? --Milkmandan 05:00, 2005 Jan 30 (UTC)

I can't find any sales figures from Toyota which have the data split out in models. --Dublet 19:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Official link dead

The link to the "official Toyota page" is dead; it just leads to a note that the car is no longer available in the US. Is there an alternative, or should it just be removed? Haeleth 12:55, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest linking to the UK page.

Morwan 18:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I've done this now.--Dublet 16:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for re-wording.

"Introduction of the GT brought with it a 2.0 L engine that would, in various versions, power the Celica for the next 11 years"

If this statement is refering to a particular engine. ie The 18RG which was used in the 76 GT celica. Use of this engine ceased in 78/79.

If it was refering to the fact the celicas were available with a 2.0L than this is true to 99.

I am not sure where the 11 years comes from. 85?

Maybe it was refering to the 21R used in celicas from 79 to 85?

With this much confusion maybe this should be rectified?

I think this refers to the R series engine, which was in fact used through 1985.--RA64 11:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3rd Generation (1982-1985)

What ever happened to the GT engines developed by yamaha? Aimed at finding the missing GT engine of 82-85.

The first GT celica engine was the 1600cc 2TG twin cam 8valve.(Head developed by Yamaha.)Producing 120HP

The second ran a 2000cc 18RG twin cam 8valve. (Head developed by yamaha.) Producing 145HP

The third (?) ran an 22RE single cam 8 valve of 2.4L capacity producing about the same HP as the 1600cc 2TG.

The fourth ran the 3SG(t)E twincam 16valve ( yamaha developed)Producing 145HP for the 3SG and 200\280 for the 3SGTE.

The fifth ran the 1.8L VVTLI twin cam 16valve producing 190HP (Developed by Daihatsu Engine Development)

Which engine is least like the others? I am wanting to know if there was a real GT engine for the 82-85.

I'm not sure I completely understand the question, but I think in Japan and maybe other markets, some T series engines were still used in the 3rd generation (3TG) The 22R/22RE was the only engine available in the USDM 3rd gen. celica.--RA64 11:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

There was a 4A-GE engine which was in the fourth generation Celica as well. Model code would be the AT160 GT. It produced 88kW@6600rpm (118bhp) and 149Nm@5000rpm (110lb/ft). This would fit in nicely with your missing time slot. --dublet 22:57, 11 January 2006 (CET)

The 4AGE was in the 2nd or 3rd generation (3rd I think), I dont think it was in the 4th. Also the picture of the 3rd gen is of a 2nd gen. The 3rd gen looked pretty much the same as the 2nd but had pop-up headlights (at least in Australia).

The picture is definitely of a 3rd gen. The 82-83 models had pop "out" headlights, which popped forward from the recessed position in the picture. The 84-85 model years had true pop-up headlights.--RA64 02:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Celica & The 3SGE/3S-GTE

It seems there's some confusion over the exact generations and specs of the 3SGE/3S-GTE engines in the Celicas. Here's what I know:

4th Gen Celica had the first generation 3SGE (ST162) & 3S-GTE (ST165), producing 147 and 190 hp respectively.

5th Gen Celica had the second generation 3SGE (ST182) & 3S-GTE (ST185), producing 156 HP and 200(USDM)/225(JDM) HP respectively. The 3S-GE was unavailable in the US, instead, the 5S-FE was present.

6th Gen Celica had the third generation 3S-GTE in the ST205, producing 255 HP (JDM), and 239 HP in the UK. However, it had both the third generation and fourth generation 3S-GE engines in the ST202. The third generation 3S-GE had VVT-i and produced 177 HP, while the 'fourth generation' 3S-GE BEAMS (introduced in 1997) had dual VVT-i and produced 197 HP. None of these engines were brought to North America, USDM Celicas had the more 'economical' 7A-FE and 5S-FE.

---

comment about the 6th generation engines

The above is actually incorrect, dual vvt-i was never available in the Celica (this engine did come with dual vvt-i in the black top version found in Altezzas, it produces 210ps).

VVT-i (non dual) was present in the Celica thanks to the BEAMS "Red Top" 2.0-liter 3S-GE it produced 200 horsepower and 21.0kg-m of torque. this engine was put in the Celica ST202 SS-II and SS-III among other toyota models.

stats of the engine are as follows BEAMS = Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System

VVT-i = Variable Valve Timing - intelligent

Inside diameter x process (mm×mm) = 86.0×86.0

Aerodynamic volume displacement (cc) = 1998

Compression ratio = 11

The highest output (ps/rpm) = 200/7,000

Largest torque (kg-m/rpm) = 21.0/6,000

Speed change ratio

1st gear = 3.285

2nd gear = 1.960

3rd gear = 1.322

4th gear = 1.028

5th speed = 0.820

Retreat = 3.153

Deceleration ratio = 4.176

Helica LSD

obviously the above relates to the jdm model. in the uk the celica had a choice of 2 engines as mentioned above, and also a 1.8 liter st version.

so there is confusion as the engine and power figures vary over country of origin as well as the time of production.

---

All engines in the 3S series (3S-FE, 3S-GE, 3S-GTE) were 2.0 L.

Chassis codes seem to follow this pattern:

4th gen: 16* 5th gen: 18* 6th gen: 20* 7th gen: ??? It's completely different.

ST**2 - FWD, 2WS, 3S-GE engine. ST**5 - 3S-GTE All Trac / GT-Four AT*8* - FWD, 2WS, 4A-FE or 7AFE (excluding the 4AGE, I've never heard about it)

I don't know exactly what a ST183 would be. 4WS, possibly? Morwan 06:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't thing there really is a lot of confusion. There simply are a lot of versions! There are at least 8 different models of the ST182 alone. This is because of the different engines (3S-FE, 3S-GE, 5S-FE) which have all had changes at a certain point in time, thus producing different amounts of power ad torque. I know for sure that there are 5 different ST185s. The ST183 is the ActiveSports I think. I'm working on fully documenting the gen 5, it just take a lot of time, as there are that many versions, models and variations.

For the gen 7 there are only two chassis codes: ZZT230 and ZZT231. The former indicates a 1ZZ-FE engine and the latter a 2ZZ-GE. A ZZT231 can also be a TSport, which in the EU means just the 2ZZ-GE engine, while in the UK it specifically refers to a certain trim level.

As for the 4-6th generations, The A denotes an A engine. The S denotes an S engine. The T** denotes the generation, whereas the 0, 2 and 5 denote ST, GT and GT4. the 3 seems to be only for the gen 5.

The 4A-GE is quite a nice engine, but only found in the AT160 GT.

I've spent quite a bit of time figuring out all the different codes, only to find out that Toyota doesn't really stick to it's own scheme, and just changes it for fun. It's a nightmare to document.

--Dublet 09:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too technical

I think it is great to have all of the technical detail for enthusiasts, but I came here just to find out why I can't seem to find any used converetible celicas for sale after 1999. Did they discontinue making them? Perhaps not many were sold? The article might be improved by structuring it with simple summaries aimed more at the average car buyer towards the top and adding more technical detail toward the bottom. --Ed--

yes, 1999 was the last year for a convertible version celica.--RA64 15:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the main problem with this article is that it's way too technical, and I think that will put off many potential readers who don't know much about Toyotas. --ApolloBoy 04:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

++ RA25/TA27 Info ++ The TA27 and the RA25 were the first production liftbacks. I'm not totally sure about the TA27, but I know the RA25 was JDM only and not exported. Both models look the same but the TA27 had the 2T engine and the RA25 had the 18R engine. There were two models of each; namely the ST and the GT. The GT variants had the 2T-G engine for the TA27 and the RA25 had the 18R-G engine. The RA25 also got the Porchse/ZF patented P51 5-speed gearbox and a 7.5inch F-series 2-pinion LSD. As mentioned the bonnet on the Ta27/Ra25 was flat, like the TA22. The TA27/Ra25 were built on the TA22 chassis and therefore these cars use TA22 bits for the running gear, brakes, suspension etc - not RA23 parts. Forward of the doors is different on the RA25/TA27 and you cannot replace these parts with RA23/28 parts. However, you can put on the "short-nose" TA22 front if you desired. The bonnet flute/vents of the TA27/RA25 GT versions are very distinctive and unique to the JDM "long-nose" TA22 vehicles. The most distinctive and unique feature of the TA27/RA25 was the rear tail-lights, where it had 5 lights per side, whereas the other liftbacks all had 3 lights per side. The fuel flap was in the middel of the rear lighs on the TA27/RA25 and the spare tyre sat upright, under a cover, on the RH sinde of the rear compartment. The first TA27/RA25 models were built in April 1973. In Jan 1974 a few minor cosmetic changes were made and they remained in production until about Oct 1975, when they were replaced by the RA28. RA25/TA27 coomand a premium price in the Japanese market, let alone the prices for a good condition model outside of Japan. --river--

[edit] Not just too technical, but technically inaccurate

This article requires a serious clean up, including removing large amounts of pointless technical information, and fixing of a number of technical inaccuracies. Not only that but where are the citations? Using terms like "ct20b" to refer to the turbocharger on the st205's should be avoided like the plague, because it is merely a contructed nickname, not an official one by any stretch of the imagination. Further; "a water spray bar for the front Intercooler " is an innaccurate description, "Styling of the new Celicas was acclaimed by most publications as "Supra-esque" with four exposed headlights" is misleading because no Supra ever had 4 exposed headlights (except perhaps the mk1 but they were entirely different). This is just a small sample taken at random from the article, but similar bungling errors exist throughout the document. - Malcolm 203.211.93.95 04:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation plus another article

I would just like to ask about creating an article about a Slovenian Hostel called "Celica" which has been mentioned in the Lonely Planet Bluelist thingy as the world's best youth hostel, which in my oppinion is enough to make it encyclopedia worthy. Swizec

[edit] Power

In my personal opinion I think it would be better if the article could reflect a more global view with the power figures being in metric and standard measurements (ie: kw, ps, and horsepower).

[edit] Latin IPA

I don't recall Latin having 'θ' as a sound, so much as 'k' for 'c' regardless of what followed... Perhaps it should be amended to say late Latin, or perhaps replace θ with k? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.190.49.222 (talk) 02:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC).