Talk:Toshitsugu Takamatsu

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Uh...is there any documentation for any of this?

Maybe not, except various Bujinkan sources. I don't think it is possible to independently verify most of the claims made by Bujinkan and its affiliates. I have added {{cleanup-verify}} in hope someone adds even the Bujinkan sources to this article. jni 13:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

How is it impossible for the man to have had both "ninja and samurai roots?" Ninja was a job, not a social caste. 128.143.218.86 23:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

What's this in response to? Keep in mind Hattori Hanzo had both "ninja and samurai roots" as well. Further, ninja was technically a job and caste as well -- view the first line of the wiki on caste, and compare to the social structure of the ninja: gennin, chunin, and jonin.68.108.104.183 18:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genbukan and Tanemura

Tanemura was a student of Hatsumi before founding the Genbukan. Unless Tanemura received his menkyo kaiden from Takamatsu it would be wrong to say that Takamatsu passed down his art to Tanemura. --Rustedshuriken 22:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Genbukan does not claim that Takamatsu directly passed his art to Tanemura. Realize, however, that Takamatsu had several students, of which Hatsumi was the youngest. Tanemura studied under Hatsumi, and as I recall, he was in charge of the training curriculum when he left in 1984 after a personal conflict between him and Hatsumi reached a peak. At this time, Tanemura had been given Menkyo Kaiden in all nine schools of the Bujinkan, and he then proceeded to seek out Takamatsu's older students, such as Sato Kinbei. In this manner, he obtained the Hiden of the traditions in question, and could legitimately branch the schools; note, also, that he got certain Soke-ships from e.g. Kinbei.

If you have a look at the facts, Tanemura does posess the correct scrolls to document his lineage, and this manner of branching schools is not uncommon nor illegitimate in Japan.

All this aside, arguments about lineage is really only of interest to historians (who will find more useful information elsewhere) and people who need to "prove" the legitimacy of their chosen art by such arguments. Both Tanemura and Hatsumi have demonstrated their proficiency in practical application of the art; both are regularly consulted by law enforcement and military in an official capacity; both schools teach the same art (with different approaches); the art itself is successfully used by members of both schools on a regular basis.

For real information on the Genbukan, I guess I'd recommend www.ninpo.org, www.genbukan.org, and www.e-budo.org. The latter is a forum whose operator is a member of the Genbukan, currently a security contractor in Iraq.

However, while it may be relevant to list the Takamatsu-den traditions (Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan, in chronological order) on this page, it would not be correct to say that Tanemura had received his qualifications from Takamatsu. It is clear that he received them from his successors.

Actually, I'll go poke around the sources a bit and see if I can make some pages to cover the "X-kans" and their personalities in a bit more detail. Might as well make the insomnia work for me :)

[edit] Roots and references

I have added Hatsumi sensei's book. I read much of this there.

About samurai being a social caste... well ninjutsu pratctioners were well... to be nice the counter culture martial artists. by "roots" it is not meant as caste. by "roots" it means geneology.

According to 'Ninjutsu: History and Tradition' by Masaaki Hatsumi, he was the grandson of Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, the 32nd Sōke of the Togakure-ryu. The family line seems to stretch back through at least nine further members of the Toda before him.

Given this, I would say that having 'ninja roots' would be a fair claim.

-- Sasuke Sarutobi 14:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Takamatsu's schools are claimed to be koryū. Thus, they do not fit the definition of 'Neo-ninja'. Please do not add this superfluous and judgemental link back.

[edit] The last WHAT?

I would change that, but I'm sort of too baffled to do so. I cannot rightly apprehend the sort of confusion of ideas that would lead to such a statement. --GenkiNeko 20:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually "Saigo no jissen ninja" that Takamatsu is referred to as. Rough translations tend to be "last 'real combat' ninja", "last ninja in practice", and "last true ninja". From "saigo" meaning "last", and "jissen" meaning "combat, real fighting".Stslavik 19:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)