Talk:Torero (bullfighter)

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Contents 1 from VfD 2 Matador (From Bullfighting discussion) 3 'Matador' 4 Controversy 5 Move

[edit] from VfD

(article was kept)

• Keep. It's an interesting short article worthy of expansion. - Lucky 6.9 18:57, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep -- Cyrius|&#9998 19:44, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. More information out there. DJ Clayworth 21:29, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Sure to grow, even independently of a bullfighting article. Postdlf 23:13 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, I agree with the above. Jeeves 00:26, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Why was this nominated? Smerdis of Tlön 01:24, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Listed without comment by Dante Alighieri [1] -- Cyrius|&#9998 01:43, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
    • Listed by me because I couldn't see it turning into an actual article. It went without comment because I couldn't figure out this stupid format. ;) --Dante Alighieri | Talk 06:31, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
      • That's why I ignore trying to create this stupid format and let others do it. RickK 21:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Brooklyn Nellie (Nricardo) 04:14, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, please contribute. (BTW, would someone delete Toreador (Camarilla)? I created it by mistake, it is now an orphan redirect. Thanks...)Jorge Stolfi 05:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Cribcage 06:41, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Looks perfectly reasonable, even though the "matador" material is just a stub. The balance of material between this article and Bullfighting article might take some thought. But a page that combines disambiguation redirects, a short explanation of the commonest term, and the link to a longer article seems quite functional to me. Dpbsmith 13:21, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I'm spanish, and here in Spain the word is 'torero' is much more used than 'matador'. And you never say 'toreador', I think this word first appears in the opera Carmen for matters of rhyme. --80.58.11.44 21:54, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Patched accordingly. Could someone from Spanish Latin America confirm the status of "toreador"? Thanks...
  Jorge Stolfi 02:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Never heard of "toreador". Ok, I'm from Argentina, no toreo there so it doesn't count. But search in Google for "toreador site:.mx" vs "torero site:.mx" (same with .ve, .pe, .ec) and you'll see nobody uses it. But it accepted by the Real Academia del idioma, though

The term "toreador" is archaic and it refers to rejoneadores who fought bulls on horseback. It hasn't been in common use since the early 19th century

--In Puerto Rico, we use Torero. Heck, Chayanne even released a song called Torero CaravaggioFan 03:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This should probably be moved to Torero. 'Matador' is a common term in America amongst people who have never seen, and no very little about bullfights, but that should hardly be the standard.

- Ncsaint 17:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• Exactly: "matador" is the common term. English is what it is, not what it "should be". Therefore, while on Spanish Wikipedia this article's counterpart would appear under "Torero", on English Wikipedia it ought to be where English-speaking people would expect to find it: under the word they use for the concept.

[edit] Matador (From Bullfighting discussion)

There seems to be a lot of confusion on terminology, even (surprisingly) among people who say they live in Spain. A torero is anybody involved in the lidia of the bull: that includes the matador, banderilleros, the picadores, and in some places, even the puntillero (if he is not one of the banderilleros). A matador (fully known as a matador de toros) is the lead bullfighter, who has taken his "doctorate" which is his rite of passage from the minor-league ranks, where he was a "novillero". Once he has taken that "alternativa" he is a matador de toros forever. He can then "confirm" his graduation by fighting in Madrid, Mexico, or Bogota, though the majority do so in Madrid. I am unsure why people who say they are either Spanish or live in Spain would be confused by the term "matador" which is the only possible word to describe a lead bullfighter who has taken the alternativa.

[edit] 'Matador'

where in the bullfighting world is 'matador' a common term for the torero? In the United States, amongst people who know absolutely nothing about bullfights, the word 'matador' is standard. But I have never encountered it in places where bullfighting actually occurs, and there are some comments to the same effect on the matador page. It seems clear to me that that page should be moved to torero, and that there should be some clarification on this page. But I don't feel qualified to make that clarification... Is 'matador' simply wrong? Is there somewhere where bullfights actually occur, and this word is used in favor of 'torero'?

- Ncsaint 17:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Matador is word used in the Spanish speaking world. The word in Spanish for bullfighter is torero. Not all Toreros are bullfighters. Matador is the highest level of torero. It is sort of like being in the major leagues. A particularly promising torero is presented at a major bull by a current matador (his sponsor, so to speak) and the older matador formally asks the novillero to kill one of his bulls for him at which point the torero is promoted to full matador.--Counsel 18:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

but where? it's simply not true that 'matador' is used in 'the Spanish speaking world' in that way. People in Andalucia, for instance, are aware of the word, but have no use for it, in my experience. So where is this word being used? - Ncsaint 22:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia. "Matador" is the ordinary term in English, at least in the US, and the main entry ought to be there, just as the entry for a tuxedo (smoking jacket) in French Wikipedia ought to be under "Smoking" because they use the English word "smoking" alone to refer to a tuxedo regardless of the fact that we don't.

DRAE defines matador as "torero who kills by the sword". Banderilleros, picadores and rejoneadores are not matadores, but I think at least some of them are toreros. --Error 00:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Matador is a Spanish word and is used in spanish. The Spanish version of Wiki has this to say about the varios levels of promotion among Toreros: "El torero tiene varias etapas de formación, obtenida por la práctica. La primera etapa es la de novillero, en la que se lidia novillos debido a su menor tamaño y fuerza, comenzando generalmente en festivales sin caballos, para luego pasar a novilladas con picadores de acuerdo a sus resultados. La segunda etapa es la de matador, donde el torero ha conseguido destreza suficiente para desarrollar con estilo y técnica todos los tercios de la lidia. Cuando un novillero logra, en teoría, los méritos necesarios alcanzar el grado de matador, realiza una corrida especial denominada alternativa. La alternativa se puede conseguir en cualquier plaza de toros de primera categoría; sin embargo generalmente los matadores realizan una confirmación de su alternativa en plazas de particular tradición como Las Ventas en Madrid o la Monumental de Ciudad de México." If you are not a spanish speaker, this says largely the same thing that I wrote in English above.

The assertion that the article as written should be moved to "Torero" is largely valid, however. The article is not particularly accurate right now. It confuses Matador with Toreros in general. The article under Toreador is flat wrong. Matador is used in Spanish. It is roughly (very roughly) analogous to saying "major leaguer" rather than "ball player". Torero is the more common word, however picadors, peones, novilleros, and rejoneadores are all toreros. Only a Torero who is skilled in the third tercio of the corrida and has been presented at Las Ventas or Monumental is a Matador. This is the person who works the bull with the muleta and kills him with the sword in a major bullfight. I think that this article should be corrected and clarified to explain the role of a Matador vis a vie the rest of the players in a corrida, or it should be expanded to include all of the Toreros in a corrida and moved to that title. I believe the latter is the better option.--Counsel 17:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

I'm surprised that in this article there is no mention of the controversy that, I presume, must surround the proponents of such a controversial sport. For example, do they personally face criticism? Are they ever threatened by animal rights activists? There is a section on the controversy in the bullfighting section, of course, but I think it would be worthwhile to have something, even just a paragraph, in this article to make it balanced. This is just an observation - I know virtually nothing about bullfighting and was reading this just through interest.

Sorry - forgot to sign above comment Blaise Joshua 12:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I added a See Also section with a link to the main article where the controversy coverage is found.--Counsel 15:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I have tried to move the article to Torero without success. As that page already exists the move is not permitted. Right now Torero is just a redirect.--Counsel 15:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)