Talk:Toraja

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To-do list for Toraja: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
  1. Add language,dance,music,food,etc., if any.
  2. Add economical situation of Torajan
  3. Toraja is the ethnic group, Torajan is the people, aluk is the original Torajan religion with the official name is Aluk To Dolo. (Don't use Aluk Torajan!!)
  4. Improve prose in LS.
  5. Orphan paragraphs (1-2 lines in it) -> merge/expand/remove.
  6. Add picture(s) of Toraja people
  7. Recheck the Cruyt material re hisotiric movement of Torajas and consider deleting this section unless you can find some scholarly validation--this is very dubious material. See Nooy-Palm's work for a more reliable representation of early migrations etc.
  8. Consider replacing the Sandra materials. This "article" was a class term paper based on a reinterpretation of original scholarly works. It is not based on anthropological insights, as the author states she has never been to Toraja. As a result there are some errors in her representations.
    → done. — Indon (reply) — 16:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Priority Toraja

Contents

[edit] Comments from Request for Feedback

Hi everyone. I've just made a major change of this article: Toraja, about an ethnic group in Indonesia. I found this article as only a stub [1], did some research and put my contribution in the article. However I need somebody else to review this article, as one editor is not enough to make a good article. Could somebody please give me some feedbacks? What's still missing in this article? NPOV? sources? or wording? Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 11:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Indon! I'm Hildanknight, creator of RFF. This is an excellent article, and I could not spot any problems during my brief reading of the article. I suggest you send the article for a peer review, where it will receive more extensive and specific feedback, and once the peer review is completed, nominate it for Good Article. As a member of the Good Articles WikiProject, I'd be happy for you if Toraja becomes a good article. I have to go to bed now, but hopefully one of my friends will soon drop by and give you more extensive feedback. If I have the time tomorrow, I will read the article more thoroughly and get back to you. All the best to you, both in real life and as a Wikipedian! --J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hildanknight, thanks for your support. It gives me a good feeling about sending it to the peer review and GA list. Since I'm the only one who did a major contribution, I tried to put the article here first. All right, have a good night sleep, but I am waiting for your thorough and comprehensive review tomorrw ;-). — Indon (reply) — 14:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll try and give it a proper look later, but it definitely needs a copyedit - it switches between past and present making it unclear whether events are historical or current. Yomanganitalk 14:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed your edit, Yomangani. Thanks a lot. I admit that I have a difficulty in tenses. — Indon (reply) — 15:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

copy-pasted — Indon (reply) — 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments from Peer Review

[edit] Toraja

I found this article as a stub, did some research and expanded this article. As one editor is not enough, I need somebody else's review of this article. Any comments, suggestions, critics, even direct editing to the article, are very welcomed and I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 09:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments:
  • "...as the Dutch understood that the future acceptance of Christianity by Torajans depended heavily on its policy toward the smoke-descending (death) ritual..." Why?
  • Religion and social class are mentioned across many different sections, which lends itself to redundancy.
There's a lot of good information, but the prose is often fragmented and unclear, and there are some grammatical mistakes, especially as regards tense. It's sometimes unclear to me which social costums are modern, and which are traditional and no longer practiced. Having read just the first section, for example, one would think they still hold slaves. I tried to fix what I could. -- bcasterline • talk 16:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Answers:
  • First of all, thanks a lot for your deep review. I need that, as English is my 2nd language. Thus you're right about the prose. I still have difficulties in tenses. I'll take a detail look again to that article and check the time, which one is traditional, obsolete and modern practices.
  • About Torajan Christianity, that sentence was taken from one of the reference. I'll try to read again and fix the unclear.
  • Yep, you're right again. It's sometimes difficult when their religion is used in many aspects, but I'm going to reduce the redundancy.
Again, thanks a lot bcasterline. I noticed your edit in the article and I really appreciate it. — Indon (reply) — 07:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


nice pictures. consider moving the map (currently located by the history section) to the top of the page (in the infobox). Jon513 13:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the review. I think the map picture is better in the History section, as the article explains about an ethnic group. So the infobox should represents the ethnic group identity and if the map is moved to the infobox, the History section will have no image. The map is suitable to describe the location of Torajan among Bugis and Makassarese, explained in the History section. — Indon (reply) — 17:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I what you say makes sence. But when I started reading the article my first thought were "where the hell are these people". Jon513 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
In that case, I moved the History section above. Hope that helps. — Indon (reply) — 14:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 18:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nominations for selected Indonesia article

[edit] Toraja

I have made some changes and I think it's a good one to be selected. Don't you think? — Indon (reply) — 11:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. — Indon (reply) — 11:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Great job! -- Imoeng 20:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 18:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments from Indonesia peer review

[edit] Toraja

Guys, I've made a lot of changes in this article, but this article really requires more than 1 contributor to have neutral views and also, as I'm not a native English person, I need somebody else to check grammar consistencies, as well as spelling. Any critics, suggestions and direct editing is very welcome and I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 04:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could give suggestions and recommendations. But my english is not better than yours, so, umm, ahahahah, I'm afraid I'll make the article worse. Above all, it looks great for me. Good work! Cheers -- 10:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
C'mon, I've made so many grammar mistakes. Thanks that somebody corrected it. Anyway, thanks. — Indon (reply) — 11:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some requests

  • Would like to see some pictures of Toraja people, preferablly in their traditional clothes. Can't imagine a page about an ethnic group without having some pictures of the people themselves :-)
  • Would like more details about their culture - their food, clothes, art, crafts, etc.
  • Could include a section listing notable Torajan people

MichaelJLowe

Oops, a lot of requests ;-)
  • I wish I could find a picture of a Torajan people on the internet, released with suitable Wikipedia licenses. I don't live in Toraja, nor Indonesia and I cannot find a Torajan people here in Europe. As soon as I can find or ask one, I'll put it in this article.
  • About culture, I will expand it, but I need to do some research first. Also, I'm avoiding big article for Toraja, because as soon as it is too long, people won't read it.
  • Notable Torajans? Hmm... I think, I've to ask some Torajan people on the internet.
BTW, this is just an ordinary talk page. The above style I created is just because this talk page was empty. :-) — Indon (reply) — 07:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 23, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: The article is well organized, with clear sections. However, significant grammatical errors remain. I fixed those where I found them, but people should run through the text again and again to catch any others. The main problem with the article is the sometimes poorly organized paragraphs. I have included some examples I found below.
2. Factually accurate?: Everything seems accurate, and is sourced. Please consider in-line citations
3. Broad in coverage?: It seems thorough.
4. Neutral point of view?: It seems suitably NPOV.
5. Article stability? Article is moderately stable, although there is a higher level of activity than is generally considered good during a GA nomination. All current changes appear to be for the better, but they should be taken care above by the time the article is no longer on hold.
6. Images?: Images are decent, although I second the comment above that asked for pictures of the Toraja themselves.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far.


I am a Good Article candidate reviewer who focuses on social sciences. Accordingly, I started to review this article. Although it is in many ways excellent, I have to fail it. I always try to provide in-depth feedback when I fail a nomination. In addition to the standard template, I have made significant grammatical changes to the article to correct frequent flaws I found. I have also posted paragraphs I found confusing or in need of more information. I have not gotten beyond the society section. I will start culture tomorrow.

In the late 19th century, the Dutch became increasingly concerned about the spread of Islam in South Sulawesi, especially among Makassarese people. They saw the animist highlanders as a pool of potential Christians. In 1909, the Association of Dutch Reformed Missionaries (GZB) began missionary work in four ways:

  1. slavery was abolished, bringing peace and relative safety to the area,
  2. Christianity was introduced, later used as a defence against lowland Islamic fundamentalism,
  3. local taxes were applied, and
  4. a line was drawn around Sa'dan area and called the Tana Toraja (or the land of Toraja) (Sandra 1998).
I am not sure how the four points supported the missionary work. Please explain.

After Indonesian independence, South Sulawesi was the host to Darul Islam, a separatist movement to make an Islamic state of Sulawesi, which killed 10,000 people, including Christian and aluk Torajans, between 1951 to 1965 (Sandra 1998). Many more Torajans were converted to Christianity and fought against the Indonesian government.

The text above seems to say that there was a surge in Moslem conversions associated with a war against the national government. It then goes on to say that there was a surge in Christian conversions because of a rebellion against the national government. Were both conversions simultaneous? Are they seperate? If so, please modify the passage to include an explanation. Also, "played host to" is probably not the best way to describe a seperatist movement.

The family seat is the tongkonan, a traditional Toraja house. Each tongkonan has its own name and this becomes the name of the village. Consanguinity is common in order to maintain a strong kinship community.

What is the "family seat" exactly? If the name of the house becomes the name of the village, does this mean that each village is one extended family? Also, please explain "consanguinity" so that the average reader will not have to click on the article to find out more.

Marriage is determined by genealogy, that is, who can marry whom (Sandra 1998).

What restrictions are imposed by genealogy?

Each Torajan village (and thus a family) was autonomous in terms of authority. In a more complex situation, in which one Toraja family could not live alone, they formed a group of 1 or more other Torajan villages. Some villages were united against the other villages in different conditions. Some villages sided with the Dutch against the lowlanders. Others fought the Dutch. Traditional animists and Christian Torajans could unite against Muslims. Yet, at another time, all Torajans (including Muslims) defended theirselves against Bugis people (Sandra 1998).

How was power shared when villages cohabitated?

Aluk is the law, religion and habit combined, and includes instructions on how to perform social life, agricultural practices, dealing with ancestral, rituals, etc.

This sentence is awkward. However, I don't know enough about the subject to try and fiddle with it.

Culture and Commercialization to come tomorrow..." --Tjss(Talk) 07:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Answers to your questions above:
  1. I am not sure how the four points supported the missionary work. Please explain.
    • It didn't work, as it has been explained in the later paragraph that the Dutch failed to subdue Torajan's culture. The 4 items were directly quoted from (Sandra 1998).
      • My only issue is this: I just don't see the how those four items helped missionary work.
        • Maybe the four items are really misleading. I've fixed that. — Indon (reply) — 08:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. The text above seems to say that there was a surge in Moslem conversions...
    • Fixed. It was because of copyedit that the meaning was changed.
      • Okay looks good.
  3. What is the "family seat" exactly? If the name of the house becomes the name of the village, does this mean that each village is one extended family?
    • The family seat is the "official" place where the family is located. [2] I think it's a common term to note about some ancient/medieval practices where family holds some political or economical influences in the area.
    • Yes, each village is one extended family.
      • I am fine with the family section as it stands (see a few copy-edits), although the info I asked about would still be nice.
  4. Also, please explain "consanguinity" so that the average reader will not have to click on the article to find out more.
    • Fixed.
      • Looks good.
  5. What restrictions are imposed by genealogy?
    • It is uknown to me, as the literature I read does not explain further. I will try to find more about this, as soon as I find it, I'll update the text. In the meantime, this is what the literature says.
  6. How was power shared when villages cohabitated?
    • Again, the detail about this is not yet known. I have to dig more about this in other literature.
  7. This sentence is awkward. However, I don't know enough about the subject to try and fiddle with it.
    • It means that aluk is not only just a belief, but it governs all life of Torajans. I have fixed this sentence in the text.
      • I modified the sentence to include a link to belief system. At the end, should the comma be removed between ancestral and rituals?: Aluk is not just a belief system; it is a combination of law, religion, and habit. Aluk governs social life, agricultural practices, dealing with ancestral, rituals, etc.
        • Better. Thanks. — Indon (reply) — 08:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
About in-line citations, I used the Harvard referencing style, which is one of the 3 official WP citation styles. Could you also please read how to make an inline citations in Harvard referencing? This is what I have done in the text.
The GA criteria requires that only in-line citations be used, so I'm afraid Harvard referencing is not an option. In-line citations are footnotes. Since you already have the bibliography written up, it shouldn't be that difficult to change. For each place you need to cite something, just include the bibliography between < ref > and < /ref > tags at the end of the sentence. For example, I modified the four points on missionary work (Sandra, 1998) to use in-line citations.
We have agreed in this issue that the article has already inline citations by using Harvard citation style of inline citing. So I can assume this issue is fixed, right? — Indon (reply) — 08:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your thorough review, Tjss. I am going to wait your further review tomorrow. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 09:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture and commercialization

The second type is tongkonan pekamberan, which belongs to the family group members, who have adat functionaries.

What is adat? According to the adat article, it's system of traditional Mylay law. Does this mean that the residents of the second type of house are local judges?

Yes, they can be judges or some administrative persons. Perhaps adat article is not good enough to explain about it. I've fixed this sentence in the article. — Indon (reply) — 08:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to run (busy weekend!) but I'll get to commercialization soon. The section on culture is generally excellent, as is most of the article. --Tjss(Talk) 17:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I'm done with my copy-edit. I hope the feedback above helps. Please consider submitting it for a GA nomination again. I have contributed too much to review it again, but I'm sure someone else will have little problem promoting this to GA status. Cheers. --Tjss(Talk) 19:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Tjss. You've been a great reviewer. I'm going to fix the article from your feedbacks and renominate it again. Cheers back ;-). — Indon (reply) — 19:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed all GA comments and citation is adapted to the majority in WP --> renomination — Indon (reply) — 23:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Article Passes

First, a congratulations. The article is well written, everything it should be. It was in-depth and covered the wide range of topics it should. There is only two things I would like you to address. Don't make me come back and take your GA away, please fix these quickly. A graph or chart displaying the rise of tourists or tourism income would be great. Note: it would be easy to contact the Indonesian tourism office and ask for year-by-year numbers of tourism income from Toraja. Then you could transpose those numbers into a graph. Its very easy to do. Your citations are here, good. The references are fine. You could flesh out the "Further Reading" section more. Otherwise, this is an excellent article. A bit more work and it is, to be honest, ready for FA nomination. I truly enjoyed reading this article. Evan(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!) 11:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing this article and don't come back to get the GA away ;-), just kidding. Anyway, I can't promise any graph/chart image, as I'm far away from the ministry of tourism office, and .... lacking of images are not requirement of GA :-). Thanks again. — Indon (reply) — 11:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One more suggestion

Indon, congrats on the GA status. One more suggestion - it would be great if there were a separate Wikipedia article for Tongkonan, as per Rumah Gadang. When I get some time I'll be adding some more detail to the RG article to make it more informative than just the single picture and paragraph currently there. Ideally we could eventually have one article for every traditional architectural style present in Indonesia, with an overview article listing them all. (MichaelJLowe 10:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC))

Michael, I have the same idea. I'd like to create one and I found a good source in library here, where I'm studying, but it is offline. The book is focused on Tongkonan architecture with its cultural purposes. Yes, it will be good to have each traditional Indonesian architecture as one WP article. I'll support for that. Thanks for the congrats. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 11:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
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