Talk:Tonto Apache

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, which collaborates on Native American, First Nations, and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet been rated on the assessment scale.
Suggested article edit guidelines: To help us prioritise our workload, and in readiness for Wikipedia:1.0, we need to assess our articles for Quality. If this article is Unassessed, please assess it. See the Article Classification for instructions. If you disagree with a rating, you can change it or discuss it at Article Classification. Before assessing this article, be sure to check the existing Archive of assessments made under the previous system (used until July 2006), and feel free to help in migrating the existing comments besides from adding your own evaluation. After assessing this article's quality, please make sure it to add it to the Lists at Article Classification, following the grading scheme detailed there.
Please rate this article and leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Changing name to Tonto because:

• In Arizona at least, "Tonto" is still the most widely-used name and appears on maps, literature, etc.
• Name of the associated political entity is still "tonto" in English
• Dilzhę́'é is not widely understood around here, but if you say "Tonto" everybody knows what you're talking about.
• Convention overrides offensiveness, as long as it's noted in the article.

--Node 06:49, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ok, but the Dilzhę́’é prefer to be called Dilzhę́’é, regardless of what non-Dilzhę́’é call them. I note that other articles such as Nuxálk (= Bella Coola) & Nuxálk language use the names preferred by the peoples rather than the names more well-known to outsiders. i was just going by this convention. peace — ishwar  (SPEAK) 07:10, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

well, i changed the article to Dilzhe'e Apache. this is more respectful. this parallels other articles on indigeous peoples. — ishwar  (SPEAK) 02:35, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)

Daagote'e' Ish ishwar,

The problem is that even Dilzhe'e call themselves "Tonto" in English. The official name of the tribe is "Tonto", as opposed to the "Tohono O'odham Nation" (formerly the offensive "papago"). It can't be that offensive if it's still part of the official name they have for their own tribe.

In addition, "Dilzhe'e" is ambiguous.

"Nuxálk" is used by both Nuxálk people and outsiders --- it is now the "politically correct" name for the people, and it can be found in many English texts as well. On the contrary, "Dilzhe'e" appears in almost no English texts.

Also, unfortunately, language retention among the Tonto Apache is very low, so "Dilzhe'e", being primarily a name from Ndé biyati', will be less familiar to them.

Iinagodzin at'ee --Node 01:27, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

dagot’éé.

many Dilzhe’e now prefer Dilzhe’e over Tonto. you can see an example of this usage on the two websites linked from the main article (& also in the PDFs of the tribal newspaper on the Yavapai-Apache site). This is a fairly recent movement that you may not have encountered yet. There may be some Dilzhe'e who do not care either way, but there are some who do prefer Dilzhe'e (I will have to inquire further about this if you are interested).

regarding ambiguity: Dilzhe'e is not ambiguous to the Dilzhe'e. With respect to non-Dilzhe'e, the term is no more ambiguous than Tonto which has been used to refer to Dilzhe'e Apache, all Western Apache groups, and even to Yavapais (although it is way better than the term Apache!). Some elders do not even recognize Western Apache groups as they are mostly a western anthropological nomenclature. However, I dont know if these elders specifically reject the Tonto grouping.

so, to conclude, the main reason to use the term Tonto Apache stems from a preference to use "established" terminology. which is not necessarily an objectionable practice. After all, most encyclopedias would list Bella Coola and not Nuxálk. peace – ishwar  (speak) 2005 June 28 18:25 (UTC)

Daagot'éé.

I think that until such time as the tribe changes its name officially, we should keep it as "Tonto". This is similar to using "Pima" instead of "Akimel O'odham". In case you're not familiar with that case, "Pima" is an exonym derived from the Pima "pi 'añi ma:c", meaning "I don't know" (the response to Spanish explorers asking them what peoples they were). "Akimel O'odham" is the native name. "Akimel O'odham" is slowly usurping the name "Pima" in English usage, but the official usage by both Pima tribes (Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community and Gila River Indian Community) remains "Pima". On the other hand, the Tohono O'odham (formerly Papago, from "Ba:b ko'a", meaning "they eat beans") have officially changed the name of their tribes.

You're very right that the division between different "groups" of Western Apache is almost nonexistant and is largely created by anthropologists. The White Mountain Apache and the San Carlos Apache both have good-sized reservations that border each other for hundreds of miles; if they were all one reservation it would be nearly the size of the Navajo Nation. --Node 29 June 2005 23:52 (UTC)