Talk:Tolkien's legendarium

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[edit] Relevant citations

From Steuard Jensen's FAQ: [1]

Did the events in The Lord of the Rings take place on another planet or what? Short answer: No, on Earth.

• "Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea." (FOTR, Prologue)

• The Calendar in the Shire differed in several features from ours. The year no doubt was of the same length (*), for long ago as those times are now reckoned in years and lives of men, they were not very remote according to the memory of the Earth.

(*) 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 46 seconds. (ROTK, Appendix D)

• 'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in .... And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet. (Letters, #165)

• I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. ... The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance in time. (Letters, #183)

• ...I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap(*) in time between the Fall of Barad-dur and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.

I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is ... not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration ... of an old word for the inhabited world of Men, the oikoumene: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O. English middan-geard, mediaeval E. midden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet!

(*) I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh. (Letters, #211)

• ...I have not made any of the peoples on the 'right' side, Hobbits, Rohirrim, Men of Dale or of Gondor, any better than men have been or are, or can be. Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' -- which is our habitation. (Letters, #183)

Was the northwest of Middle-earth, where the story takes place, meant to actually be Europe? Short-ish answer: "Yes, but a qualified yes. There is no question that Tolkien had northwestern Europe in mind when he described the terrain, weather, flora, and landscapes of Middle-earth... However, the geographies simply don't match."

• ... if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region [FR, 11]. I could have fitted things in with greater versimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; ... (Letters, #211)

• ... As for the shape of the world of the Third Age, I am afraid that was devised 'dramatically' rather than geologically, or paleontologically. I do sometimes wish that I had made some sort of agreement between the imaginations or theories of the geologists and my map a little more possible. But that would only have made more trouble with human history. (Letters, #169)

• The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. ... If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy. (Letters, #294; note that "northwestern Europe was used for comparison rather than equation".)

Was the Shire meant to be England? Short answer: It was based upon England.

• [The Shire] is in fact more or less a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee ... {Letters #178)

• But, of course, if we drop the 'fiction' of long ago, 'The Shire' is based on rural England and not any other country in the world... [Later in the same letter he implied that the Shire was "an imaginary mirror" of England.] (Letters, #190)

• There is no special reference to England in the 'Shire' -- except of course that as an Englishman brought up in an 'almost rural' village of Warwickshire on the edge of the prosperous bourgeoisie of Birmingham (about the time of the Diamond Jubilee!) I take my models like anyone else -- from such 'life' as I know. (Letters, #181)

-- Uthanc 00:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

These are all great citations (some of which are already used in various Wikipedia articles, some of which aren't), but this is missing the point somewhat. We are not discussing whether or not Tolkien's stories form an interconnected mass that we want to call a legendarium, but what sources we can cite that justify us calling it a legendarium. The correct place to look is (a) the History of Middle-earth series; (b) Tolkien's Letters; and (c) the book Tolkien's Legendarium. Then we can justify our use of the term, and point to various sources that define and use the term. Carcharoth 01:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify further, the term seems to be used both to describe the effect Tolkien was aiming to create - that of a genuine legendarium - and also as a blanket term describing the collection of stories he wrote. ie. (1) Tolkien aimed to create a mythology for England, a legendarium. (2) The History of Middle-earth series covers the history of the varied collection of stories known as Tolkien's legendarium. I've now found some cites from Letters. Carcharoth 01:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• [on The Silmarillion] "This legendarium ends with a vision of the end of the world, its breaking and remaking, and the recovery of the Silmarilli and the 'light before the Sun'..." (Letters, #131, c.1951 - the long one to Milton Waldman, describing The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings)
• "...my legendarium, especially the 'Downfall of Numenor' which lies immediately behind The Lord of the Rings, is based on my view: that Men are essentially mortal and must not try to become 'immortal' in the flesh." (Letters, #153, 1954)
• "Actually in the imagination of this story we are now living on a physically round Earth. But the whole 'legendarium' contains a transition from a flat world [...] to a globe..." (Letters, #154, 1954)
• "But the beginning of the legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was an attempt to reorganise some of the Kalevala..." (Letters, #163, 1955)

Those four quotes are the only ones referenced in the Letters index. Incidentially, that last quote is a good example of Tolkien adopting the usage of 'trilogy' to refer to LotR... :-) Carcharoth 01:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I've now updated Tolkien's legendarium with this material and more. Hopefully someone will tidy it up. Carcharoth 02:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Great - but I was responding to Mirlen's request for "geographical" quotes. Uthanc 03:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops. I see that now. Sorry! :-) Carcharoth 03:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

No harm done. On the LOTR Talk page (archived?) it was explained that Tolkien used "trilogy" when corresponding with others who did; the letter is used in the article. Uthanc 03:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah. That explains it. Thanks for starting the tidying of the article. Hopefully the references will get sorted out properly at some point as well. Well, I'll do that now! Carcharoth 11:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

(End copied section - new comments below please)

[edit] Middle-earth Cycle

User:Steuard wrote somewhere that he'd never seen this term used before, the discussion groups on Usenet used "Middle-earth legendarium" or something like it. And Tolkien didn't use the term himself. Any chance of it being merged with this? Uthanc 02:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)