Talk:Tofu

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[edit] Western/Eastern

What year are we in? 1870? Are these archaic terms really appropriate in this day and age?

[edit] Author mistaken about seitan?

The author says in the lead that "Wheat gluten, or seitan, in its steamed and fried forms, is often mistakenly called "tofu" in Asian or vegetarian dishes." I disagree with the "often", and don't believe this sentence belongs in the article in any case. I have never encountered, or heard of, a single instance of seitan being called tofu either in a recipe or in a restaurant. This, despite having been a vegetarian since 1971 and having been in scores of restaurants (vegetarian and non-vegetarian; Asian and non-Asian; macrobiotic and non-macrobiotic; in half a dozen states in the U.S.A) in which tofu dishes were served. Brief Googling failed to find any reference to instances of confusion between seitan and tofu in any place other than this article. Thus it seems that while perhaps the author has observed an incident or incidents in which seitan was misidentified as tofu, there is no justification for regarding this as a common mistake. In general this article seems quite well done, which makes this reference to seitan even more surprising. Publius3 19:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protein-Oil Phase

I personally like the sound of P-O Phase, but I think it is just a bit too technical and chemistry based. Does anybody think so too? Sjschen 22:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, although they might understand the individual words, nobody knows what this phrase means. Badagnani 23:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surgery

I did some major surgery on the article kinda forgot to post here before hand. Sorry about that... Please comment, and should Varieties and Uses be recombined? Maybe that was not such a bad idea after all. Yes, I'm crazy about tofu. -- Sjschen 06:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Special Types

Shanshui Doufu (山水豆腐) to my understanding is "mountain spring water tofu". I see it often in my supermarket and I've always taken the name to be just a marketing ploy; using "fresh" and "natural" spring water to make tofu. As such, I'm not sure if that can really be counted as a special type of tofu. However, there may be another type of Shaushui tofu that I don't know about. Please elaborate. :)

As for, Almond tofu (杏仁豆腐), I understand that it is silken tofu plus almond flavouring. Whether tofu made of almond milk exists or if it can actually be done I don't know. Once again, please elaborate. :) --Sjschen 05:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vitamins

What vitamins does Tofu have? -- 17 Jul 2003 . . User:Nahum

as a reply to Nahum:

I did a quick google search, and found this:

http://farmsoy.home.mindspring.com/nutrition.htm

Not too sure about this, since it is from a company. It might be better to get more universal values, like from a government nutrition agency or something. It seems that it doesn't have any vitamin A or B though.

and this is my first time talking back into Wikipedia instead of being talked to by it. Sorry if I'm not using proper protocol or something.

--Timpeters 16:58, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I believe those figures are from a government agency. Food manufacturers are required by US law to print correct nutritional information on every product they manufacture and ship. (tim, hope you don't mind, I formatted your comments a little). -- wulong 22:39, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Doufu is from China, not from Japan. We have to use Chinese Pinyin "doufu", not Japanese Romaji "tofu".

Nonsense. The established English name is 'tofu'. Insisting on 'doufu' because it 'comes from China' is as good an example as any I have seen of Chinese chauvinism.

Indeed, tofu belongs to the world. As well, I don't see how it can be proved that the spelling "tofu" came from Japanese Romaji, and not from a nonstandard Romanization of Mandarin, or a Romanization of one of the dialects in which the first syllable is aspirated. — Pekinensis 16:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hear hear! --Sjschen 04:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Moot point, I think, as the first letter in the pinyin: doufu is practically unvoiced, and resembles english t almost as much as english d.

That is wrong, T in pinyin is an aspirated voiceless sound, D is unaspirated voiceless. The English initial T is aspirated voiceless and English D is unaspirated voiced. Due to partial de-voicing of "d" in English in certain situations, the only reliable phonetic difference between initial /d/ and /t/ in English is aspiration, not voicing, just as in Chinese. Therefore to the ear of most English speakers the Chinese pronunciation (doufu) sounds more like an English "d" than an English "t". LDHan 12:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

My dictionary (American Heritage) says English "tofu" comes from Japanese. Badagnani 23:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There you have it, referenced information. Put it in the article. --DannyWilde 00:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems that it is called "bean curd" Down Under: [1][2][3][4] (and Google provides 864 more hits as well). Badagnani 17:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Australia, and I've never seen it called bean curd. Everyone knows what tofu is. — mæstro ^t/c 11:47, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, okay, point taken, but you get 94 000 for "tofu" ;-) Grace Note 01:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recipe

I removed the recipe. It saddens me that there is no place for recipes in Wikipedia, but that seems to be the convention. In any case, this particular recipe needs considerable work before it is ready to be presented in an encyclopedia. Some of the information could be extracted and put back into the article in a more encyclopedic way.

Pekinensis

Recipes can be put to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook. As soon as the Cookbook has a well-stocked category for Tofu recipes, we can link to it from here. As long as there are only two recipes (Tofu pancake; Agedashi tofu), it wouldn't make much sense, would it? – Wikipeditor 20:28, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Make Your Own Tofu

Ingredients: Soy Milk:

½ pint dried Soy Beans

1 Gallon Water

Tofu:

1 Gallon Soy Milk (as made above)

2 teaspoons Epsom Salts

Method:

Soy Milk:

Soak the beans in water overnight.

With an excess of water, liquidise the beans to form a light slurry. Make up to 1 gallon.

Quickly bring to the boil and boil for only 20 minutes (if you boil longer, it will curdle and this is not the correct time to start the cheese process).

Cool quickly and filter the milk through muslin or cheese cloth.

Tofu:

Take one gallon of soy milk and add the Epsom Salts. Stir and it will curdle. Leave for around 30 minutes (adjust the time and the amount of salts according to experience with any particular source of Soy beans).

Strain through a cheese cloth. The liquid (equivalent to whey in the calf vomit process) is an extremely powerful detergent and can be used for cleaning purposes (including washing the dishes). Slowly squeeze the liquid out of the curds and gradually compress them - this can be done by butting weights on the cheese cloth bag (as it has become) or by putting it in a press. Stop squeezing when the curds are firm.

Variations:

Tofu has almost no flavour of its own (your palette needs to have been meat free for a number of years before you can appreciate the subtleties of tofu) so it will quite easily take on other flavours - add them before pressing.

Add various herbs.

Add garlic and /or onion.

Try smoking it (putting it in wood smoke - not wrapping it in paper and trying to set fire to it)

Storage:

Store in a refrigerator under water that is changed daily. Will keep various times according to how well it is prepared but usually around one week maximum.

Serving suggestions:

To cook with it, chop it up into half inch cubes and deep fry it (in hot oil but with the heat turned off so that it doesn't stick to the bottom) until browned, drain it and then mix it in with any sauce you like. It can alter the emphasis on any meal, curries, even a pasta sauce.

Otherwise, it can be mashed up or chopped up and put in with salads or marinated with salad dressing first.

Voila! You've got your tofu!

--BugzPal 12:17, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translations of the name but no recipe?

This seems a bit odd to me. Why is there a list of different translations of the name in the article, while the recipe is deemed unfit? The recipe seems much more encyclopedia-like to me than that list, if any one of them are. // E23 11:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess the reason is that there are numerous kinds of Tofu and they are called different names depending on their consistency. Unfortunately there is only one English name for all of these variety. Usually some kind of disambiguation is required when you try to do a many-to-one mapping. Or else the reader cannot tell one variety from the next. Kowloonese 20:24, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

The answer is that there is a separate for recipes. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a cookbook. You can describe generally how something is made so people can understand the process, but actually ingredient-do this-do that recipes are not here. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 05:25, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mishmash

Unfortunately, the article right now is a strange mishmash of some Japanese and some Chinese words/phrases. Could someone help sort them out? Fuzheado | Talk 05:55, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let's start from the top. The stuff is called "tofu" in English, regardless what it's called in any other language.Grace Note 06:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is not just a strange mishmash of Chines words/phrases, it's also a strange collection of western and eastern conceptions of tofu. It should be noted that this is likely due to the fact that tofu available in a western market is sometimes rather different from that found in "strictly" asian markets. Tofu cooked on a grill? The western form can be used in this fashion but asian firm tofu is so soft that it will disintegrate on the grill. Taste and texture like chicken? There is a vegeterian "chicken" made from wheat gluten but it's definitely not tofu. Coagulated with acids?...nope never seen it... --Sjschen 21:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The section "Choosing Tofu" and it's content seems to be mishmashed. The content seems to be about maintaining and storing tofu which has nothing to do with choosing tofu. A title like "Tofu Storage" might be deemed more appropriate. Kreagan82 10:38, 17 July 2006

[edit] Staleness

Why does the word "staleness" refering to Tofu that has become sour, link to "Foodbourne Illness"? Foods that are stale don't neccesarily cause illness. In this case, I would say it is very unlikely to cause illness. It just makes the Tofu taste sour, and makes the texture less appetizing. -PhifeAlQuest

[edit] Other types of Tofu

Fermented tofu (furu 腐乳) - A kind of tofu packed in salt water and wine and fermented. Also known as Wet Tofu or Wet Bean Curd. Taste is similar to miso, a Japanese fermented soya bean paste. The taste of fu yu is often likened to cheese. Fu yu is commonly found in 12 oz. jars either plain, spicy, or with sesame oil and can be found in the condiments section of Asian food markets.

I've added some info above and changed the name to 'Fermented tofu' as fu yu is not actually pickled. - HenryChung 00:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Thousand layer tofu (千叶豆腐) - By putting tofu into the frost compartment of the fridege, it will form multiple layers within itself. Sltan 20 July 2005

Tofu bamboo (腐竹) - Also called Dried Tofu, Tofu Skin or Tofu Stick. This is made by letting soymilk form a "skin" and drying that skin. Comes in long bunched-up stalks (hence the name tofu bamboo) or in flat sheets that can be stuffed. Usually found in the dried goods section of Asian food markets.

Concerning "tofu bamboo", can anybody tell whether there are any real differences between Chinese fǔzhú (sp?) 腐竹 and Japanese yuba 腐皮, or are they just different names for the same thing like "maize", "corn" and "mealies"? I figure Korean yubu 油腐 유부 is made in a similar way, but its texture does not look as smooth as 腐竹's, and it is probably never dried. Any clarification on this would be appreciated. – Wikipeditor 20:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Yuba and fuzhu are used extensively in both Chinese and Japanese cuisine. The two are different only in the way they are dried. Yuba is dried as a sheet (腐皮; tofu skin). Fuzhu is is bunched up. As for 油腐 유부, I think it's the exact thing, well...I dunno, but at least they taste very similar. I tend to side more with the "maize", "corn", and "mealies" thing you mentioned s--06:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Dried tofu (豆腐幹/豆腐干) - A denser, dryer tofu that has been pressed and slightly aged. Not really completely "dried", just dryer. Dried tofu can be slightly chewy and is often used diced as a substitute for meat in vegetarian Chinese dishes. Usually comes plain or marinated in spices, usually five-spice (五香) and is found in the refrigerated section of Asian food markets.

Tofu shreds (幹絲/干絲/干丝) - Long strands of dried tofu (see above). Good substitute for recipies that call for shredded meat. The taste is very subtle and is often stir fried with strips of meat in Chinese cuisine.

Why is this info going in "Talk" instead of in the article itself? I'm confused. Badagnani 00:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms/nutritional information

Great article! Informative, engaging and well written. Having said that I have to agree with Nahum above: The description suffers from neglecting nutritional information. This is especially important, as tofu is often considered health food, ie some people will feel motivated to eat it because its purported healthful effects.

For people who like detail I can recommend http://www.rahul.net/cgi-bin/fatfree/usda/usda-l0.cgi?TOFUx%20RAW,%20REGULAR. However this content is out of keeping with the non-technical nature of the article. So I'll just include a summary.

--Philopedia 22:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed the POV "rightfully regarded" because there are some who believe soy foods (including tofu) to have negative effects on the human endocrine system. I don't think this is yet addressed in the article. Badagnani 23:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tofu skin

I've eaten, in a Japanese restaurant, a fried tofu skin that is somewhat rectangular and stuffed. It's actually not thin like yuba, but a little puffy. It's a standard item on sushi menus but I've forgotten the name. Is this discussed in the article? Badagnani 03:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, here it is, from the sushi article: Inarizushi (stuffed sushi). 稲荷寿司. A small pouch or pocket filled with sushi rice and other ingredients. The pouch is fashioned from deep-fried tofu (油揚げ or abura age), a thin omelet (帛紗寿司 or fukusazushi), or dried gourd shavings (干瓢 or kanpyo). Sjschen, can you check and add this? Badagnani 03:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Cancel that; I see this was already in the tofu article. Badagnani 03:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tofu flower

I personally think "Tofu flower" is a horrid literal translation that serves to confuse. Does somebody have a better suggestion for a good replacement term? Sjschen 14:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. How about a pseudo-transliteration? Like "Tofu Fa" (Cantonese) or "Tofu Hua" (Mandarin)? - HenryChung 00:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't "dou" mean "bean"? So literally it would be "bean flower"? That's even worse. You could switch the adjective and noun and call it "flower tofu" or "flowery tofu," or "flowered tofu," but I'm not sure that would be accurate either. Maybe "tofu blossom"? But "tofu flower" seems the most accurate, and literal. Badagnani 00:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Dou" does mean "bean", but in the context of "dou hau", it is implicitly know as "tofu flower" (bean rot flower). I'm fine with the "tofu-" part but I don't like "-flower" since in Chines "hua" can mean also "pattern", "a mess", "flower", or "to spend", all depending on how its use. In this case it literally either means "pattern" or "a mess", neither of which sounds good (tofu mess or tofu pattern). As such I dont' know. Sjschen 03:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the use of "hua" equivalent to its use in the term "hua gu" (a type of shiitake mushroom with a "cracked" flower-like pattern on its top)? As such, it would have a link to flowers, at least in its visual appearance. Badagnani 04:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The thing is dou hua is usally quite a patterned mess which does not "pattern" like a flower. Although shititake mushrooms have a craked pattern that vaguely resemble flowers, I very sure that dou hua does not. Sjschen 04:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm starting to think maybe the phonetics idea by Henry is the better idea Sjschen 04:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

That will probably make things more confusing for English speakers/readers. I would just put "tofu flower" in quotes to illustrate that it's a literal translation, not the exact contextual meaning, adding something like that it's called that "due to the fanciful patterns of the surface of this tofu..." Badagnani 04:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Tofu flower" may not be the best translation, but it is the common English name for the product. One product can have different names in different languages.

Further down the page with "Eastern methods" there is a picture of supposed tofu flower. That is actually not tofu flower. The sweet syrup is always clear. Fresh tofu is served with a variety of preparations in China, most of which are savory (there was a great article in Saveur about this, the many carts with their many condiments for the fresh tofu). What is pictured is savory, made with a soy based sauce and can come with scallions on top. It has another name (since tofu flower is only the name for the sweet version) which I don't have off of the top of my head, but I'm going to research it. Can anyone help with this? scazza 16:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the syrup might have been sweetened with brown sugar. LDHan 12:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It is more accurate to translate as "doufuhua".

[edit] Protein

I changed the bit about protein because the old version takes an outdated "more is better" perspective of protein, which is not true. The passage described tofu's seemingly "modest" amount of protein as inferior, and then in explaining its high protein to fat ratio, described that as "attractive". This is outdated and wrong. See for example The McDougall Plan, 1983. Michael Bluejay 08:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Human need for protein has been suggested, for example, at 2.5% (studies in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition), and 5%, or 6% for pregnant women and 7% for lactating women (World Health Organization). Nearly all food contains more than this, e.g.: strawberries (8%), rice (8%), oranges (9%), potatoes (10%), corn (12%), zucchini (17%), pinto beans (24%), cauliflower (33%), broccoli (43%). And these aren't cherry-picked foods that have special amounts of protein, nearly *all* foods contain more than ample protein. Michael Bluejay 08:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be speaking here mainly as an activist, which is not good for our site. Speaking in terms of grams per day, an adult male weighing about 120 lbs. (like myself) would need about 55 grams of protein per day. Brown rice has 5 grams per cup. Broccoli also has 5 grams per cup. A potato has 4 grams per 6 oz. (medium) potato. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm If I eat rice as my staple food, with similar vegetables, I would need to eat 10 cups of food in a single day. But it's very difficult to eat that much, at least for myself. Eating foods higher in protein (of course not implying that tofu is the only one, but you must agree it is higher than many vegetarian foods) means that one doesn't have to eat as much volume of food to gain this 55 or so grams. Badagnani 08:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your discussion. I am not speaking as an activist, I am just trying to make the article accurate. My point is, if nearly all food contains more than ample protein, then the amount of protein in tofu is nothing special. Your argument about needing to eat 10 cups of food a day doesn't make sense to me. Nobody eats brown rice exclusively. Provided that enough food is available, people will eat an appropriate amount of food to maintain their body weight. And when they do so it's almost impossible for them to ingest insufficient quantities of protein, since just about anything they eat will contain more protein than they need.

The passage you're championing says this:

While its 8% protein content by weight (16 grams of protein per 5 ounces for firm tofu) is rather modest, considering its origin as a bean product and the fact that most of its mass is due to water, the nearly 2:1 ratio of protein to fat is in fact quite nutritionally attractive for those not obtaining enough protein from other sources (e.g. vegans).

This is wrong because it takes a "more is better" approach, by describing the seemingly "modest" amount of protein as unattractive, and then describing its higher-than-it-seems amount of protein as "quite nutritionally attractive". This is wrong, because tofu's protein content is not special considering that nearly all foods contain more than sufficient protein. And describing vegans as especially challenged for obtaining protein is not correct. If you disagree then I would like to see sources. You say to edit, rather than revert, but I can't edit what's incorrect. The passage in question takes a very outdated view of protein and as such it should be updated in order for the article to be of the highest quality possibe. Michael Bluejay 09:08, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I just explained that if I eat brown rice, broccoli, and potatoes, bread, or whatever, in a day, I'm going to have to eat 10 cups of food. I'm sure I can't accomplish this feat. Do you understand what I am saying? Thus, one has to be intelligent and eat beans, gluten, tofu, or similar foods to reach that 55, 60 or whatever number of grams it is. I object strongly to your insinuation that what I am saying is outdated, as I don't believe it is. Let's deal with specifics, not generalizations.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm has a table of the amount of protein in many vegetarian foods, and they are clearly not equal. Some are 3 grams per serving, some are 10, 15, 30--all different amounts. If I need to get 55 grams, they are clearly not equal, or adequate, if I have to eat 10 cups of food per day. Please address this or the article is getting reverted (which is very rude of you to do, by the way, rather than edit the article).Badagnani 09:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: "Do you understand what I'm saying?", I not only understand it, I addressed it. I'll try again: The fact that you would have to eat 10 lbs. of rice or some similar food to meet your caloric needs couldn't be any more irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make, which I'll try to make again: *Whatever* someone eats, they're almost certainly getting more than ample protein. That's true whether someone is eating ten pounds of food per day or three, since *whatever* foods they select to meet their caloric needs will with very rare exception provide more than ample protein. From your writing it's not clear to me whether you get this. As for my being reverting being rude, don't be surprised if people revert when you refuse to discuss. (And thank you for discussing now, by the way.) As for recent reverts, I've already explained that I think the older wording is inaccurate and I believe it's better to replace inaccuracy than to edit inaccuracy. Michael Bluejay 10:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

In your recent revert (made right after you called me rude for reverting), your edit summary says, "tofu is higher in protein than other vegan foods". This demonstrates to me that you're missing the point. I don't dispute that tofu is higher in protein than other vegan foods. What I dispute strongly is that that fact is of any special significance, considering that nearly all foods provide more than ample protein.

Even though I believe your "10 pounds" explanation is flawed for reasons I've mentioned, let's apply that test to tofu: To meet one's caloric needs with tofu only, one would have to eat *8 pounds* of it. That's still more food than most could comfortably eat. So including tofu doesn't appreciably reduce the amount of food an individual must consume.

That nearly all foods contain more than ample protein is not in dispute. Again, *whatever* one chooses to eat, in whatever quantities, they are almost certain to get more than ample protein, and thus tofu's higher than normal protein content is not a special advantage. The fact that tofu has more protein than other plant foods couldn't be any more irrelevant, for the reasons I've mentioned. Michael Bluejay 11:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say 10 pounds of food, I said 10 cups, which would be needed in order to get the recommended allowance of 55 grams of protein. If I eat brown rice, broccoli, potatoes, and other similar vegetables in a day, how am I to eat 10 cups of such in order to get that 55 grams of protein? It is impossible without adding some higher protein foods to my diet, such as tofu, gluten, or beans. You have not addressed this at all in your comments. Badagnani 20:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

In fact, I've addressed it repeatedly. I'm sorry if you don't understand my answer. In any event, I believe the compromise in the article now is sufficient. Michael Bluejay 06:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burmese tofu

Kathari says 1) Burmese tofu isn't made of lentils, but is actually made of chick peas; and 2) It's originally a dish of Shan origin. If this is accurate, I guess these things should be fixed. But I still don't understand why that Burmese restaurateur told me it's made from lentils. Lentils don't resemble chick peas at all. Badagnani 00:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I just got off the phone with this Burmese restaurant in Virginia. I was told that the dish is made from chick pea flour. Although some people call it "lentil flour" it's actually made from Indian "chana dal" flour. "Chana dal" is the Hindi name for chick peas, so it looks like Burmese tofu is made from chick pea flour. She also confirmed that Burmese tofu originated with the Shan people. Badagnani 00:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that it can be made of either? Sjschen 07:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

That might explain the confusion. But the person to whom I spoke (who spoke good English) said that it's chick pea flour (she said they use Indian "chana dal" flour), and not lentils. Perhaps we could cross check by talking to more Burmese people via Burmese bulletin boards, etc. but I'm mostly satisfied (though I still can't understand why or how anyone could confuse a lentil with a chick pea) that it's made strictly of chick peas. Badagnani 07:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not lentils; chickpea flour is what the Burmese use. Shan tofu however is made from yellow split peas (zadaw bè in Burmese, pè byoke when boiled). It's firm but more jelly-like than the Burmese version and yellow, eaten hot before it sets as to hpu byaw(k) (lit. soft tofu) in upcountry Burma but named to hpu nway (lit. warm tofu) as a recent arrival in Rangoon. More commonly it's eaten as fritters (to hpu jor), also as hna pyan jor (lit. twice fried which it is) and as a salad (to hpu thoke). 86.7.135.224 20:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your expert information. There's almost nothing about this (at least in English) on the Internet. So there are two types of "Burmese tofu" -- the type eaten by the Burman majority made from chick peas (which is ? in color?), and a more jelly-like version (which is yellow in color?) made by the Shan which is made from yellow split peas (I suppose the same as what is called toovar or toor dal in Hindi)? I wonder if this second one is similar, by coincidence, to the Korean hwangpomuk, which is made from mung beans but colored with gardenia flower. I wouldn't call that tofu, though, but a jelly, as it is made exclusively from starch rather than proteins. Badagnani 20:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Burmese tofu is also yellow and I suppose they cheated in using chickpea flour and not making the effort to process it from yellow split peas, not mung beans either. Sorry, I'm no expert, just a foodie and had to ask the wife who's a wonderful cook in Shan, Chinese, Indian as well as Burmese tradition. 86.7.135.224 23:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for the clarification; would you agree that "Burmese tofu" and "Shan tofu" are both more similar to a jelly (like the Korean jellies hwangpomuk, dotorimuk, nokdomuk, etc.) than a tofu? As in, it's made primarily from starch, not protein, and the texture is more jelly-like (looking like Jell-o), and shiny in color? (Then again, the Japanese soft tofus look like this too, though they're white in color.) I guess I'm going to have to find some of this stuff somewhere, but there aren't any Burmese restaurants around me. Most likely this food needs an article of its own, as I'm thinking it's not really in the same category as regular tofu made from soybeans. Badagnani 05:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are both yellow and jelly-like, not shiny but quite firm and easy to cut without crumbling like tofu which strangely enough is called pè bya (lit. pressed pea and translates to bean-curd in English and not tofu over there), the pickled version of which (si to hpu, here's the mixup in names! very likely a Burmese corruption of its Chinese name) is also popular in the north, Mandalay upwards. Remember chickpea and yellow pea are not starch but legumes and protein. Burmese jelly (kyauk kyaw) on the other hand is made from agar. Burmese or Shan topu may be cut into rectangles, scored lengthwise and fried known as to hpu gyaw or into triangles and fried twice as hna pyan gyaw, the preferred way in the Shan states, also dried in larger rectangular slices as to hpu gyauk and fried as to hpu gyuak kyaw rather like poppadums, a popular item of dried food sold in Burmese pagoda festivals (hpaya pwe). 86.7.135.224 13:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, great, fascinating info. It's quite enough to go on for the tofu article (sounds quite analogous to "regular" tofu) and seems to merit its own article. BTW, the Korean jellies are starch (including the ones made from mung beans, as well as the acorn and buckwheat varieties); I think they do this by mashing them up then rinsing everything away but the starch, similar to the procedure of making fen si/saifun/dangmyeon (glass/cellophane noodles). Badagnani 13:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suspect citation

Is it me or should the feces mention just added be backed up with a citation? Badagnani 02:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely should be backed by citation if it appears again. Edit was by anon and was probably vandalism. MichaelBluejay 09:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Established history of tofu needs expansion

Links to works by Shurtleff, William and Aoyagi, Akiko provides much of the information. Somebody just needs to go summarize and then key out the information. Sjschen 00:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese name

Why does the Vietnamese name just added differ in spelling from the spelling in the title of the Vietnamese language Wikipedia article on this subject? Badagnani 02:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I am a Vietnamese and this is the first time I learn that tofu has tào phở as name! My only explanation is that probably tào phở is how the north Vietnamese pronounce the Chinese doufu. It appears that the Vietnamese article was written by a North Vietnamese who also used a north Vietnamese name for soybean (đậu tương). Other Vietnamese names for tofu are đậu phụ and đậu khuôn. Đậu phụ sounds quite similar to doufu. Khuôn (mold) reflects the fact that the product is shaped in a mold. For dòuhuā, the Vietnamese name is đậu hủ ([soy]bean in jar), the name hủ indicates that the soft tofu is made and carried around in an earthenware jar. [mirrordor] 24 March 2007

Welcome! If you find anything that needs to be added in the article, please go ahead and fix it (if you're sure, and maybe you could consult some dictionaries). I know that a lot of Chinese characters can be pronounced and spelled in 5+ different ways in Vietnamese. Badagnani 07:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common dishes, taupok

Common tofu dishes should be added into the article such as Mapo Doufu, fried tofu etc., and why is there no mention of taupok a type of dried tofu. I'm not sure what's the English name for taupok, if not could one add it into the section of this article. --Ter e nc e Ong 09:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Taupok is fried. It's the fukenese/taiwanese/min-nanese way of saying "豆泡" or rather "dòupào". The common recipe part is a good idea, you could try to start the "common dishes" section in the Eastern and Western uses part if you wish. Sjschen 03:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hold on, I just checked the article and mapo doufu is already mentioned. If you'd like, go ahead and add the Minnanese (and Cantonese, while you're at it) names of whatever dishes you'd like. Badagnani 06:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey is taupok the same as mapo doufu??? I have a friend whose dad manufacture and sell taupok in South-east Asia and China. His taupok doesn't look the same as the mapo doufu which u mentioned. I believe i will get more details from my friend regarding taupok. Thanks.

p/s: i just wanted to clarify the differences between taupok and mapo doufu. no hard feelings. (Luffy487 03:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Tone

Is the "fu" in "tofu" fourth tone or fifth (neutral) tone? We have it both ways in the article. Badagnani 06:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

In my Chinese dictionary it is "dòufu", so it's the neutral tone. "Fu" itself is third tone (falling rising). LDHan 12:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burmese unicode

I don't really know Myanmar, but would it be OK to use the Unicode text "တဖိုးူ" instead of the picture ()?

That was added to solve the problem that what you typed above (and what existed before) shows up simply as six identical thick vertical black lines, at least on most computers. Badagnani 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know what is up with the other Burmese name ()? I'm not able to find the "bracket"-enclosed character (nor any combining characters which would create it from "ဟ") either in my Unicode character map nor in the article on the Burmese alphabet.

You could check with the person who made this edit; I believe s/he may be User:Hintha (a Burmese-language specialist), if my memory serves me correctly. Badagnani 09:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nutritional section cleanup

There appears to be a whole bunch of positive and negative health effects noted in the Nutritional section. Perhaps some cleanup is in order? Sjschen 06:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Does anyone know when did the term "Tofu" enter the English language? I remember this thing is called "bean curd" in the US back in the late 1970s. And gradually the term "Tofu" became more popular and eventually became English. When did this word first show up in an English dictionary? Kowloonese 03:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It may have entered English earlier as this article claims 1880: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tofu This is interesting too: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=soy Badagnani 03:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This one claims 1875-1880: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tofu Maybe U.S. contact (via Perry?) with Japan could explain the these and other Japanese words entering English with such prevalence (including many terms that were originally Chinese)? Badagnani 03:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

From Oxford English Dictionary: Tôfu is made by pounding the soy beans after soaking in water. Trans. Asiatic Soc. Japan VIII, p399, 1880.

The larger part of the leguminous food in the Japanese diet consists of the preparations of soy beans, such as miso, shoyu and tofu. Bull. U.S. Dept. Agric. CLIX. p46, 1905.

Two hawks have raided the tofu. BLUNDEN, Mind's Eye, p109, 1934.

Tofu (bean-curd) is made by soaking soy beans in water, mashing them, straining the mass through cloth and solidifying with the addition of magnesium chloride. K. TEZUKA Japanese Food p28, 1936.

Arrange all tofu strips in the casserole and cover with half of the cheese. Sunset, April, 214/2, 1979

In the United States,..tofu has become an ‘in’ food. Guardian newspaper (UK) 14 Aug. 7/1, 1981.

So the use of "tofu" in an English language publication dates from at least 1880, but that's not the same as "the term "Tofu" entering the English language". I would suggest "tofu" only became common in English in the last few decades, before that if it was used much at all outside the context of Japanese culture or Japanese food, it would have been recognised as a Japanese word. LDHan 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The popularity of the macrobiotic diet among "health food" enthusiasts in North America over the past 40 (?) years shouldn't be underestimated either; a number of other Japanese foods (like "seitan"), and consequently their Japanese names, gradually achieved recognition in North America due to their promotion by macrobiotic practitioners. I'm not sure if tofu is included in the macrobiotic diet but I think it is. Macrobiotic people would probably have used the Japanese names for things rather than their English translations ("tofu" instead of "bean curd," "seitan" instead of wheat gluten, "tamari" or "shoyu" instead of "soy sauce", "adzuki bean" instead of "red bean," "kombu" instead of "kelp," "dashi" instead of "broth," etc. There has been no similar culinary movement from China to promote Chinese culinary terms, and the Chinese who have come to North America generally anglicize their terms (maybe in the belief that Americans would never be able to pronounce them). The terms that are left untranslated from Chinese are often left in various non-standardized romanizations of various Cantonese or other southern Chinese dialect versions). Whatever the case, the link above shows that the words "soy" and "soybean" came from Japanese into English at least a couple of hundred years ago, due apparently to early Dutch contacts with the Japanese. Badagnani 16:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I thank everyone for providing some much research result here. This place is really a great place to learn. I guess the word really becomes an English word instead of a transliteration of a Japanese term only after the item itself became the 'in' food in 1981. So I guess 1981 is the date that I was looking for. That is consistent with what I experienced back in the 1970s. Kowloonese 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right. A lot of us are interested in this related issue as well, because I think a lot of the issues you bring up are valid ones. Badagnani 00:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This IS some great research. It explains why there are two terms; Bean curd and tofu, to describe thes same thing, the former being the Chinese literal translation and the latter being the English integrated Chinese/Japanese word. However, I don't think the English use of literal translations has just to do with becoming familiar with a foreign item or concept. I personally have always attributed it to the lessing "self-centricity" in Western culture in the 1960's and 1970's, an increasing acceptence of foreign things without needing to relate it to western concepts, as well as the globalization of the English language. Sjschen 04:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To give an example of what you're talking about, the djembe has been well known among North American "drum circle" folks for at least 15 years. Everyone knows this Mandinka name for the instrument and everyone calls it that, though most people don't play traditional Mandinka rhythms on it. However, there are probably hundreds of other drums from Africa whose names are unknown to North Americans.

Similarly, the names "chow mein," "lo mein," "Kung Pao," etc. are well known (and in not too-horrible pronunciations, though the tones are omitted), but for "duck sauce," "soy sauce," "spare ribs," "egg roll," "straw mushroom," etc. the English words are always used and no non-Chinese people know the actual Chinese words. So it's a question of exposure. The djembe was promoted as a unique item--a djembe--and not simply as an "African drum." Similarly, Chinese restaurateurs chose to use Chinese names for specific, "untranslatable" (?) dishes while preferring to translate other things into English. Badagnani 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Green bean tofu?

What is this green bean tofu Rmalloy just added to the article? Is it green bean jelly, like nokdumuk? Badagnani 03:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cantonese Slang?

I have been trying to track down any sources that can refernce the slang use of "mash tofu" in Cantonese for lesbian sex. The first mention of "mash tofu" in the tofu article was on 15:46, 23 December 2005 by the user Hanchi without any references cited. Searching google only turns up websites that reference back to Wikipedia or utilize an identical quote from Wikipedia. I would like to request that this usage be cited correctly or be removed since it does not explain it's usage in reference to the topic of tofu. Any comments on this matter would be appreciated. 71.176.130.199 22:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

We have a lot of Cantonese-speaking users; why don't we ask them? The first question is, though, did you search using Chinese characters or the English term? I don't think the time-honored usage "eat tofu" is disputed but I have never heard the "mash tofu" reference before and it is possible it was just made up, or a very limited or very recent usage. Badagnani 22:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

--Resident Evil== A piece of tofu was a playable secret character in Resident Evil 2....

[edit] enquiry regarding "sago" in sentence construction

A construction in the text reads as follows: In Philippines, the sweet delicacy taho is made of fresh tofu with brown sugar syrup at 'sago'.

What is "sago"? Perhaps there is something missing from here because I cannot discern the meaning. Perhaps could this sago be sago?--Mumun 無文 11:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

After looking at taho I changed 'at' to 'and' in the sentence above and added the sago link.--Mumun 無文 00:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

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