Talk:Toe the line

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"So one who "toes the line" is one who does not allow his foot to stray over the line." looks like it came from http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/toetheline.html (i.e. it's an exact match, mixed genders included), which purports to be written in 2003 (before this article). I suppose it's not enought to be plagiarism, though? BenBildstein 04:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's really too bad that whoever wrote that article is at least half wrong, as is this article. There are two distinct phrases: "Toe the line", which is similar to chomping at the bit, or "tow the line" which is to further a cause. --Tellybelly 16:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you haven't read the article too well - "toe the line" means "to conform rigorously to a rule or standard" (Merriam-Webster), not to "chomp at the bit." "Toe .." appears in both the Oxford and Merriam-Webster dictionaries, "tow .." does not. I think it would be very hard to argue that "tow .." is anything more than a misspelling, no matter how many etymologies are dreamed up after the fact. --Icd 08:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, as you suggest Tellybelly, Googling the phrase results in numerous websites indicating the origin of the phrase , toe the line, and that the mispelling/misinterpretation of the phrase, tow the line, is incorrect. I can find no refernce to the "barge theory" mentioned below. JPotter 02:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate meaning?

The way I learned it is that "toeing the line" is almost but not quite crossing the line (risky behavior, for example).

Or - I had heard the origin as something completely different than what is detailed in the entries or discussions. I don't have time to research it more, but will throw it out for the benefit of the discussion.

In college an ancient history prof (and world-renowned scholar/expert, Dr. Paul Maier I believe was his name) taught the origin of the phrase was the Roman Army. He explained that when the legions were preparing to take the field in battle, they formed up in precise ranks and groupings of ranks. These ranks were then precisely maneuvered by the officers to create the fiercest fighting machine known at the time. In order to achieve this, the individual soldiers had to be exactly positioned. To do this, the officers would mark a line in the dirt and order the soldiers to place their toes on the line, or "toe the line". As disobedience was not tolerated in the Roman Army, it came to take on the connotation we know today. The phrase lived on in Britain after the fall of the Roman empire where it was picked up in the local language.

That's what I remember. Perhaps someone knows more, or can run it down further.

[edit] Tow

I moved this content from the article to here because it is more of a comment than an addition to the article. --Icd 00:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

To "TOW the line"

When this phrase came up in a Latin class, back in the 1950's...with a teacher/scholar of old languages including Old English, Greek, Latin, Norse, and several others...our class learned that the expression was to “TOW THE LINE”, as "You have to TOW the line."

The story was that it dated back to days when boatmen TOWED barges up and down the canals and rivers for various hauling/shipping companies; that it may have originated in Russia on the Volga river, where indentured slaves and prisoners were often assigned this gruelling job, as they sometimes were in America as well. To TOW the line was usually used as, "You know have to tow the line when you work for these people" or “If you learn to tow the line you’ll get the promotions” (etc.). It meant you would be held to the rules and the task of literally adhering to the companies image and goals and being responsible for making a good impression reflecting that image. "If you work for A-1, you really have to tow the company line." Towing the "company line" was very often the phrase used. It most often referred to rules set down by some company or organization.

My illustrious (and somewhat infamous) grandfather was one of those wealthy rogues who used his considerable money and influence to help unionize workers back in the days of the union wars, with old Joe Kennedy, the Roosevelts, a number of distinguished politicos and, yes, mobsters as well. Mobsters often used this line as a warning: "You gotta tow the line, Benny. Ya'know what I mean?" Believe me, I heard them often enough around my grandfather’s dinner table. They were not talking about some nebulous "toeing" of any line. You can bet on that. The phrase was used in old movies about gangsters, hard-nosed robber-barons, and Eliot Ness types of the early 20th century. I saw one such film back in the early 60's and managed to get a script copy to do a performance of it in our theatre group. (That was from start to finish a comic calamity that no one ever forgot!) The phrase “tow the line” was repeated several times, almost like a litany, in this dark comedy.

I don’t know when or where the phrase took on the wimpy use of “toeing the line” (?), which really means nothing, no matter how hard you try. It’s no wonder you haven’t been able to find a source for it. It is easy to figure, in these times when “towing the company line” is not as heroic as it once was and younger people would be loath to take on such a task (though they often do just that). I know it’s hard for people who have firmly settled on “toeing the the line” to have to face really “towing the line”, a very different chore indeed. But for those who like to search such things out and verify them, this is a good goose hunt for you. Or was that a turkey shoot? I guess you have to know what you’re hunting before you can find it. Bon chance!

062606

Vera Melogn

vermillionwatermelon@gmail.com

My thoughts exactly. Especially in the sense of "tow the party line." This is one of those phrases that is nearly always on those lists of commonly misused phrases. See [1], [2], etc. Aw, heck, just Google it, people! --Tellybelly 16:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)