Talk:Tlatelolco massacre
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[edit] When will the guilty be brought to Justice?
Is there an ex prez and other officials to blame?Bona Fides 16:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually yes, I'll try to update the article later, just need more news releases and more info. [1] - Luis Echeverria, the former president in being charged with genocide for this situation. If someone else wants to update the article feel free to do it, don't wait for me IAB 5:13 (MT)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.40.192.30 (talk • contribs).
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sugiero que se revelen mas fotos de lo que sucedio y se especifiquen los motivos por los cuales se inicio este movimiento y por supuesto que se de a conocer las personas que estaban implicadas en este hecho sin importar el rango al que pertenecían en aquel entonces y que no se equivoquen al mencionar los hechos y las causas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.66.0.142 (talk • contribs).
- Translation by Youssef (not very accurate) I suggest that we/you put more pictures of what happened and that we give the reasons why these mouvement happened and of course give the names of the people that took part whatever were there ??? status at that time and that we do not make mistakes while describing the event and explaining the reasons. --Youssef 07:33, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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- I'd suggest that this article was broken up and wikified, so that it is easier to read. I concur with the statements above about adding pictures. --Hersch 07:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- It seems to be a little biased against the government, with emotionally charged references to children and such. I'm calling this a NPOV dispute. -Smack 07:03, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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- It is biased against the goverment, while I don't support what happened or the actions taken by the goverment (they could have disbanded the rally with gas or something); I do believe the ones who organized the protests are the people who should be blamed; I mean, taking on the goverment and the army using students as human shields? That was sick. In the end, it was just a failed attempt by the left movement to take over Mexico, the bloodiest one yet. But can you really blame the goverment? They had the olympic games to worry about, they couldn't have riots on the capital city and the leftists weren't stopping. I just wish the cowardly leftist leaders would show up their faces and admit they're guilty of sending misleaded kids against the army.
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- I see a slippery slope in your argument. Violence against civilians is hardly justified under any circumstances, and there's broad agreement that the protesters were unarmed. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 08:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
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- Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that the leftist leaders used unarmed students against the army as human shields (in fact, it makes said leftist leaders look worse), and sometimes force against civilians has to be used to preserve the peace in the country, not to the extent it was used that day, of course; but you have to admit it has to be done sometimes to stop criminals or guerrillas (and they are more likely made of civilians from the country they originate in), as I said on my message, gas or other methods could have been used to disband the protest without actually killing anyone, it didn't happen and blood was spilled, everybody screwed up. However, I still think the leftist movement is the one to blame, what right did they have to use students in that way, didn't they have the guts to show up themselves?
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- i'm not sure if anyone needs this clarified for them, but the above post is absolutly absurd. please refrain from interjecting your prejudices into this discussion and focus on the facts at hand. a quick google seach of the events will provide you with the insite you need to have an opinion on the matter, but until you do that i suggest you keep quiet and have some respect for the hundreds who died that day. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.184.144.223 (talk) 00:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
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- How about instead of criticizing the article you help fix it? It seems to me that there are too many people around here that shout "NPOV" from the sidelines at anything they disagree with or don't understand or don't like; it becomes a tiresome slogan which serves as a substitute for the more difficult tasks of analyzing and editing these texts. -- Viajero 08:31, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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- I've given it a shot, adding the government's version of events in a new paragraph. I also deleted the two sentences about red paint being sprayed and the helicopter overhead: perhaps more anecdotical and less important than the other stuff we've got there? Oh -- and I'm still looking for the killer external URL to link to. Hajor 03:30, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Does not appear to be NPOV at this point. As suggested by the NPOV policy, the article simply recites what occurs, and lets the reader decide. The presence of children, to respond to your example, is relevant. Seems well balanced to me, though it is surprising there is not a wealth of more material. Tempshill
[edit] Tlatelolco 1521 vs Tlatelolco 1968
I was just by the Matanza de Tlatelolco page in Spanish Wikipedia, and noted the discrepancy in that the English article does not address the significance of the location in terms of the history of the Conquest and of the politics of indigenous peoples in Mexico. Obviously that should be here but I'm not prepped to do a good translation of what's in the Spanish article. Takers?Skookum1 07:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Death toll
This allegation―:
- “The death toll remains controversial: some estimates place the number of deaths in the thousands, but most sources report 200-300 deaths.”
might be innacurate. I’ll quote a couple of Jorge Castañeda’s sentences in Spanish of his article “Los 68 del 68”, published in the Mexican newspaper Reforma on 30 August 2006. Let me know if any of you’d like me to translate them:
"De acuerdo con el informe histórico, en la Plaza de las Tres Culturas murieron ―cabalísticamente― 68 estudiantes y un soldado […]". Y todo uso de la fuerza pública se empezó automáticamente a asimilar al 68, pero al 68 magnificado: al de los 500, no al de los 68. Todo uso de la fuerza se volvió una masacre en potencia […]".
See also this pdf document in English and the threaded discussion in another WP article. ―Cesar Tort 19:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Historic references
According to documents made public by the Mexican Army and Government in 2000(?), it is absolutely inaccurate to say that the army opened fire against the students. In a video released by the army it can be seen that the firing started, if I recall, at the Monterrey building in Tlatelolco after a flair was fired to the air. It is supposed that the shooting was done by the Olympo special forces group, and that the army actually started repelling the fire protecting the students below. It is never seen that the army actually fired at the students as they were being fired from above, being the first casualty of the firing a military officer. It is my sugestion that you review the contents of this article as, to my eye, it appears completely biased and totally inaccurate.
What you have here is the description made by Elena Poniatowska and other prominent left wing politicians, that in a bid to discredit the PRI started inflating figures of casualties to obtain some kind of support from what at the time was the USSR. And if someone recalls, the incident in Mexico wasn't an isolated event, there were more confrontations like this one going on around the world, especially important is the one that ocurred in France.
