Talk:Tillie K. Fowler

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[edit] Initial assessment

I came here because this article was on the assessment request page, only to find that somebody had already assessed it as start. In any event, here is what I found:

• This article has many problems, the most serious of which I have addressed. I have removed the photographs section--5 large images of Ms. Fowler is simply too much for an encyclopedia article about a low priority politician, no matter how noble or goodhearted she may have been. Likewise, I have removed the request for donations to her memorial fund. It is enougb that it is stated there exists a fund, without giving numerous ways in which the reader can contribute (telephone, mail, and even via secure, online donation!). Wikipedia is not a place to solicit funds.

• This article also has no inline sources, and needs a longer lead. I am sure there are more suggestions I could make, but this will have to suffice now. I am putting this article on my watch list.Jeffpw 18:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
• Forgot to add: photo on top needs to be put into an info boxJeffpw 18:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Image caption formatting fixed and infobox added (Politician infobox used, but possibly the Representative infobox is better suited). Carcharoth 20:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism concerns

• I am very concerned about this page because I see what looks like plagiarism. This is from an obituary found here[1]:Upon her departure from Congress, Rep. Fowler's extraordinary efforts to ensure a strong United States military were recognized by the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense. She received the Navy's Distinguished Public Service Award and the Department of Defense Medal for Distinguished Public Service. These are the highest civilian awards given by the Navy and the Department of Defense.

Now this from the wiki article: Upon her departure, Rep. Fowler's extraordinary efforts to ensure a strong United States military were recognized by the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense. She received the Navy's Distinguished Public Service Award and the Department of Defense Medal for Distinguished Public Service. These are the highest civilian awards given by the Navy and the Department of Defense. I note, as well, that the entire page is unsourced and nothing is cited. I was just trying to polish the article and found this instance in a google search. I now wonder how much else was copied verbatim from other sources. Would somebody from this project please leave a note on my talk page addressing this concern? I have also left this message on the WikiBiography Project page. Jeffpw 22:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do is to rewrite from the source, and give that source as a reference. I'm not brilliant at giving references, so I'll leave them as external references. Carcharoth 22:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is more plaigiarism than the bits you've mentioned. It needs someone with more time to go through it with a toothcomb. I'll try and do more later. Carcharoth 23:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• • • Thank you very much, Carcharoth. If you need some help on it, feel free to ask me. WikiBiographies is my favorite Wiki area, and I am committed to making it as good as possible. Plagiarism is something that makes not just WikiBios look bad, but the whole Wiki project. I'm off to sleep now, but I will check back tomorrow and see what I can do. Jeffpw 23:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YOU CAN'T PLAGIARIZE FROM YOURSELF

Rest assured, if you read something about Tillie Fowler that is amazingly similar to what I have added to her Wikipedia article, it’s probably because I wrote it too.

I served as Tillie Fowler's Chief of Staff during her eight years in Congress, and then worked with her at Holland & Knight until her death in March of 2005. The article about her that you read on the H&K web site – I wrote it for the firm. At her husband's request, I also authored the obituary published by her family. I also wrote most of her public speeches/statements/testimony. Even her entry in the "Biographical Directory of Congress Entry" which someone linked to her article was written by me.

I might also point out that the passage that raised concerns can also be found within Senate Resolution 342, passed by the state of Georgia honoring Tillie's life I guess I just never considered it "plagiarism" when someone used language that I wrote about Rep. Fowler because it was always more important to me (and her) that what was said about her was accurate.

As I am new to this, I will defer to the experts on how you want to source this. You can be assured that I am the original author of every word I added to this article, and my sourcing is either from my own direct involvement or knowledge of the facts or from Tillie Fowler herself – I assume that having been her top advisor for the past 12 years, I would be considered a credible source. Also, as politicians’ biographies go, in my humble opinion, hers is “neutral, factual, and understated, avoiding both a sympathetic point of view and an advocacy journalism point of view” as required in bios of living persons. It’s pretty much a timeline of her career and activities.
It may be lacking in critical statements or negative stories, but just click on the link (put in there by someone else) to Eleanor Clift’s tribute or the one by Matt Towery, If Congress Had 435 Tillie Fowlers or the one by Congressional scholar Norm Ornstein and you will see that there just isn’t much of it.

Because of my relationship to Rep. Fowler, and because she reviewed and approved the biography I wrote about her that is essentially what I put in the article, I would assume my information could/should be treated as coming from the subject. Per the Wikipedia guidelines, I would contend that the information I added meets the following conditions:

• It meets verifiability, NPOV, and no original research policies.
• It is relevant to the person's notability;
• It is not contentious;
• It is not unduly self-serving;
• There is no reasonable doubt that it was provided by the subject.

I hope this background information helps. I will defer to the experts on how to proceed from here. Just please know that while there are clearly some sourcing questions here, there should be absolutely NO WORRIES about plagiarism. David W. Gilliland 03:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you for responding to this, David. There have been several instances where outsiders (newspapers) have checked articles and found paragraphs or entire articles that were plagiarized (see Talk:Jane Fonda), so we have to be careful.

I have to disagree about this being NPOV, though, and I am not personally comfortable with you simply copying articles that you wrote elsewhere in order to make a biography here. May I suggest a compromise? Perhaps you could step back from the actual writing of this article, and instead point others to your articles so we can use them in the creation of the biography. That way we will avoid both the "no original research" problem, as well as the problems with duplication of text. We can also immediately add the relevant documents as references/inline citations, and thus avoid the confusion that arises when nothing is sourced. I am willing to work on this. I had never heard of Ms. Fowler before yesterday, and find her an interesting person.

One last point, regarding POV: As it now stands, this reads more as a tribute than a bio. Perhaps she had no critics, but I doubt that, politics being what they are. If she truly was completely non-controversial and highly regarded by everybody around her in both parties, then that should be noted as well, because that makes her...well, notable. :)Jeffpw 07:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• I know it's hard to believe in the current ugly climate, but Tillie was indeed highly regarded on both sides of the aisle. Take a quick look at what Eleanor Clift (DEFINITELY a voice from the Left!) wrote in her tribute which is linked at the bottom of the Tillie article. See what Time Magazine said about Tillie when she died. Of all the articles that were written about her, however, the one that, in my opinion, summed up Tillie the best ran in the Jacksonville paper. It was titled, She kept final appointment with Tillie. Read it and you'll have a very good understanding of the unique kind of politician she was. Per your suggestion, is there a way to make documents that may not be online available to people here? I have a lot of articles and other 3rd party information about Tillie that could be helpful, but some of it may no longer be available online. Thanks. David W. Gilliland 12:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I have now read all the links you provided on this page (with the exception of Roll Call, as you have to pay for that one), and Ms. Fowler does seem a remarkable woman. I did notice a few quotes that could be expanded in this article, which would (IMO) make this a much more neutral article: first, I saw a small line (I think in the preview version of Roll Call) that said "Fowler could be a fierce partisan". This seems interesting, and some material about it, and her disagreements with Democrats (or others) would give the article some balance. Secondly, a quote from Time Magazine: "the Florida conservative, who rallied for the impeachment of Bill Clinton, was often dubbed the "steel magnolia"--a hybrid of Southern belle and drill sergeant". I would like to know more about her stance on Clinton and the impeachment. That was a very controversial subject, and she took a clear stand, apparently. The Washington Post also cited some controversy about her. One example: She was a member of the Jacksonville city council from 1985 to 1992.In 1989, as council president, she ordered the arrest of three black council members who walked out of a council hearing when they were denied better funding for sewage and drainage projects affecting their constituents.With several other council members absent, Rep. Fowler called in the police because she needed a quorum to continue work on passing the budget. In the aftermath, she spent significant time repairing the public relations damage and denying her actions were racially motivated.

Dont you think this is worthy of inclusion? Please understand: I am not trying to insert drama for the sake of drama's sake, but Wiki is a resource that many use when finding out about somebody. We have an obligation to present as comprehensive picture of people and events as possible.

• Regarding how to share offline documents, if you have them in your computer you can email them to me or anyone else who is willing to write this article.Jeffpw 12:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)