Talk:Thutmose III

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Contents 1 Great leader 2 Chronology 3 Manetho and Tuthmose III 4 Formatting 5 How did Thutmose die 6 Amarna Letters 7 Roadmap to FA 8 Builder pharaoh

[edit] Great leader

There seems to be something of a consensus that Thutmose III was a very good leader in all aspects, not just in his military efforts. Should we mention this in the articile?

[edit] Chronology

The two dates for Thutmose's rule now don't match. The first par says 1479, which Anglius corrected to, and that has been reverted to 1458. It's all very well blanket reverting those you think are trolls, Dave, but maybe you could check that your reversion is actually an improvement.

Grace Note 01:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Manetho and Tuthmose III

- Is possible that Tuthmose III may identify with Miphramuchthosis of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?

- Is possible that Hatsepsut may identify with Miphris or Misaphris of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?

--IonnKorr 22:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting

I've straightened out the formatting of the page, not perfectly, however the right alignment of the picture of the statue was shoving all the text past the pharaohbox. Furthermore, the into paragraph is a little long for an article, especially considering the length of all the rest. So this could use some reformatting across the board. Thanatosimii 03:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I've reformatted a good amount of the page, mostly to make actual sections out of that ridiculously long introduction. I'm also going to put this here: Image:Egypt.Thutmose-III.statue.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Granite statue of Pharaoh Thutmose III in Cairo Museum because it's causing a bit of an image jam. when there is a section that has to do with him as a builder pharaoh, it can be put in there, but we don't need two lead statue images. Thanatosimii 00:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't need cleanup anymore, just expansion. So, while I suggest that the article have needed parts added, the particular tag in place is not helpful. I will accordingly be removing it. Anyone who sees a specific terrifically lacking section should put the particular "Please expand this section" tag on it. Thanatosimii 19:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think it's time for me to turn my attention officially to this article. This is probably the most important egyptian ever to have lived, so I've been putting it off for a while; however I now intend to, at least, expand the campaign section until it is complete and somewhat exhaustive. Somthing to think about, however -- Thutmose III's campaigns could almost be an article in their own right, so perhaps if they get too large, they should be put in a seperate article and summarized here. Just a potential thought, however; I'm personally ambivolent. Thanatosimii 21:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that Thutmose was probably the most important egyptian ever to have lived? Because almost every egyptologist belives that the most important egyptian was of course Ramesses the great who left some of the greatest monuments in the whole egypt(about 70%of buildings that canbe seen to this day, and every pharaoh after him, was most respecting and admiering not Thutmose but Ramesses. While Thutmose left an empire that we can not see any longer, Ramesses monuments stand tall reminding us upon the greatest man to have ever walked the ancient egyptien land. R. also had much more children and wifes, and was much taller,lived and ruled longer and was quite possibly even physicly stronger.

Um... we can say that because almost every egyptologist does say that, contrary to your claim. Thanatosimii 01:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"we can say that because almost every egyptologist does say that" that claim is very strange because in my view and the wiew of others is what the egyptologist say it is actualy the opposite. He was a greatest warrior, that is for certan, but he was certanly not the greatest and most important king. Today it is known much more about Ramesses the great than Thutmosis III. In other words T. is a more obscure pharaoh in comparison to the pharaoh with the title "the great".

No offense, but really, so what? I am not sure what the point of this argument is about. This is an article about Thutmose III, not Ramssess II, and each have their own article. Keep in mind that Ramessess II lived much longer than Thutmose III did and thereby had much more time to construct monuments, have more wives, and to "grow tall". ;-) But still, so what? This is all just useless bickering about what constitutes "greatness" but unless you contribute something to either article that is substantive and that can be backed up with citations from recognized experts this discussion doesn't really lead anywhere useful. Captmondo 14:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How did Thutmose die

How did Thutmose die? -unsigned

We don't know. We just know when he died, which is actually a piece of information we don't have for most pharaohs Thanatosimii 16:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

How did Hatchepsut die? Sickness? Murderued? -unsigned

We aren't sure of that either. Thanatosimii 22:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thutmose probably died of some skin illnes ,but this is not certan.

[edit] Amarna Letters

I am not aware that Thutmose III was mentioned in the Amarna Letters. As far as I know the Amarna Letters only mention Amenhotep III, Amenhotep IV and Tutankhamun. I was wondering if anyone could provide a reference to that claim. --JLCA 18:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The amarna letters are to Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, Semenkhkare, and Tutankhamun. In them, however, references are made to several other kings. Thanatosimii 20:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roadmap to FA

Well, that's a goal a long ways down the road... but not impossible, as Ahmose I is showing. For starters, we need a good outline of what would make a "complete" article.

I. Family
II. Dates and Length of Reign

(Remove Names, integrate to infobox or delete outright)

III. Military Campagins

A. First Campaign

B. Tours of Canaan and Syria

C. etc., etc... The wars of Thutmose III in palestine would probably be a good source for this period

IV. Damnatio Memoriae of Hatshepsut
V. Arts and Archetectural Developments
VI. Monument Construction

A. Karnak

B. Other Temples

C. Statuary

D. Tomb

VII. Mummy (move any death stuff into this section, unless fits better in his tomb's section)
VIII. Sucession (Thutmose had a coregency with Amenhotep II. It was apparently only a few months, but some have argued for two years or so. For this, Murnane's dissertation Ancient Egyptian Coregencies is a must. I wish I still had that one lying around)

I'll be working with this model until someone decides we need changes. Thanatosimii 01:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a good general outline. There are a few things I would suggest adding/changing:

I Family Life (this would allow us to have several of the following headings as sub-headings, separating the biography of the man from his works/campaigns)

I.B Co-regency period with Hatshepsut (more on what role he played during this time, how prospering trade lead to the economic wealth inherited upon Hatshepsut's death, carry-through of important officials from H's reign, etc)

IV. VII. Damnatio Memoriae of Hatshepsut (suggest moving this to later in the article, since evidence shows this occurred late into his reign (and into the early part of the reign of Amenhotep II)

VIII. Co-regency with Amenhotep II (there's fairly good evidence of this, and would work well with the former)

I've gone and done a very rough edit pass on the article already, sprinkling citation needed's in places where I think evidence either needs to be referenced or the passage in question changes or removed.

Some more specific comments on areas needing improvement as I see it:

• Intro paragraph needs to be expanded (though this is arguably the last task after the other issues have been tackled). I agree that the names ought to be removed as they are covered in the pharaoh infobox. There is no mention that he was co-regent and ultimately successor to Hatshepsut, which ought to be there. More detail needed on how/why of campaigns and temple building.

• "Family" section: in general, awkwardly written, and explains little. I ought to be able to help considerably in this section.

• "Names": This section is interesting, but could probably be folded under "Family" as a subsection. Didn't know he was referenced in the Amarna Letters (and I just realized I didn't ask for a citation on that point; it really ought to).

• "Dates and Length of Reign": I've cleaned this section up a bit, but it strikes me as being thin. The relevance of the Sothic Cycle ought to be mentioned; you and I know what it is and how it applies, but this ought to be spelled out briefly.

• "Thutmose's military campaigns": This is already looking pretty good in terms of referenced info. Suggest having "See also" references immediately after "First Campaign" to the Battle of Megiddo. I note that the Siege of Megiddo leads to the same page, so the (see Siege of Megiddo) reference in para 3 can be removed if that is done.

• "Damnatio memoriae of Hatshepsut": Can't help but be uncomfortable about using a fundamentally Latin term for the header, and think it awkward to have part of the header linked; would prefer that if that term is to be used that it be linked to from within the article rather than from the header. I note that Shaw uses a phrase along the lines of "the desecration of Hatshepsut's memorials", which may be more accurate in intent than the all-out obliteration implied by the Latin term, especially in a legal sense, which has little analogy within Egyptian culture. (IMHO ;-)

I had never heard of Akhenaten linked to vandalizing (oops, am getting overly Latinate again) Hatshepsut's memorials, and have asked for a reference there. The recent discovery of the "nine golden cartouches" (and plenty of non-golden ones) is interesting, but sheds no further light on the issue as it stands. I can take care of that one.

• "Monumental Construction": Not my area of expertise, but as you have indicated already, in much need of expansion.

• "Death and burial": I can add more to this section over time as well. Can we safely shorten the reference to the likely date of death, since it is already mentioned earlier in the article?

Well, that's plenty of work right there. Let me know what you think. Cheers! Captmondo 02:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Builder pharaoh

"Thutmose III was a great builder pharaoh" - this in not entirely correct so i think it would be better to call him a worrior pharaoh. He built many temples but this is unimportant in comparison with his great military activity. (preceeding unsigned comment left by Harioris

Builder pharaoh and Warrior pharaoh are not in contradiction with one another. His military skill is already extolled in the huge section on his wars, where it does say he is regarded as the best warrior pharaoh. However, the fact that he comes in second to Ramses II when it comes to building does not mean he was not a great builder pharaoh.

Thanatosimii 19:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

While talking about the second builder pharaoh after Ramesses II, this is not the case. The second greatest builder pharaoh was almost certanly Amenhotep III, And after him most probably comes Seti I whose monuments (specificly the art from his time) are the highiest quality of any pharaoh before or after. In the building projects that Seti I undertook, the quality of the reliefs and other designs were probably never surpassed by later rulers. And we must not forget Snofru who was also a great builder, but lived much earlier. And the destruction of the monuments of Hatshepsut, the most simple reason could be simple jalaousy because Thutmose´s monuments could not rivel those of his stepmother who overshadowed him.Harioris 23:46 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Amenhotep III's constructions were indeed very large and numerous, and seti's were indeed great in quality, however in quantity it becomes hard to beat Thutmose III. Most of his temples are now destroyed, however this by no means means that he was not in his time a great builder pharaoh. Quality is subjective. Quantity is not subjective, and the quantity of Thutmose was indeed high enough to call him a great builder pharaoh. But all this beside – published sources call him a great builder pharaoh and consistantly extoll his construction works, so I do not see a problem keeping that phrase in there. It doesn't mean he was the best, and it doesn't mean that was his greatest trait, it just means he was very good, and indeed his works clearly outshadow those of Ahmose I, Amenhotep I, Thutmose I, Thutmose II, Amenhotep II, and Thutmose IV all put together. I don't see the problem with calling him a great builder.Thanatosimii 23:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but what I mean is that his monuments, although numerous, are all very small. And his monuments (most of them) were very weak in quality, so we can no longer see them. A great builder would have to, beside making a large number of monuments, make them powerful and strong enough to servive the elements of time. Harioris 12:29 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure we're looking at the same monuments? Ther're not exactly very small, they've just been mostly destroyed by later constructors or removed. A great builder is simply one whose building programs are active; it can have nothing to do with the quality, because that's subjective. And really, Egyptologists say regularly that he was a great builder, so that really appears to be the only big criterion. Thanatosimii 18:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which egyptologists say that he was a great builder? Name them. If you just compare the size of the building ( an example) that he build at Luxor wiht the buildings of Ramesses II and Amenhotep III his part of the temple seems very small. The onely great mounument that Thutmose had build is the great festival hall at Karnak. Many egyptologists say about him "he was not interested in building". All his other building work on other locations is not very important. When a builder pharaoh, such as the ones I hade previously mentioned, builds, he bulds BIG, and that is the point. Name your monuments so that I can see if we are looking at the same ones. Harioris 11:31 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Grimal goes on for two pages listing his construction at karnak alone, the Oxford encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt attributes fifty temples to him. Gardiner speaks similarly about the size of his efforts at Karnak. However, his stuff has now been mostly torn down. If the temple of Luxor had been torn down and rebuilt by the Ptolemies as well, by your criterion, he wouldn't have been a great builder either. Now, the only reason that the phrase "great builder" should be removed is if your claim that he was "Not interested in building" holds up, and I quite think that the mere mass of text dedicated to his construction efforts here makes such a claim tenuous... Thanatosimii 20:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)