Talk:Three godheads (Ayyavazhi)

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This article isn't really doing anything, and has no room for expansion. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 07:39, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, Mel This three Godhead concept is really the same as Trimurti concept in Hinduism, which is an accepted tenet in Smartism. we can put a brief note about this in mythology. we should ask steve, sam spade, and vaikunda raja about it.

Raj2004 02:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

True, and perhaps trimurti is a better place to merge it. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:17, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

We should check w vaikunda raja, but I agree w merging w trimurti. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 22:03, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

My opinion would depend upon how independent the Ayyavazhi faith is from the Hindu faith. It appears that the gods of Ayyavazhi come from Narayana (Vishnu) similar to other Hindu-based religions. I agree with the merge. Steven McCrary 16:20, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Steve, ayyavazhi, from their web sites as well as Vaikunda raja's comments, like smartism, believe that Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva are different aspects of the same God. This was written in the article, Ayyavazhi and Hinduism. In philosophy, they are very similar to Smartism

Raj2004 21:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

This is what Vaikunda Raja said: " I agree for the merge partially, because according to Hinduism three of the Trimurti have the same power and they do their own works of creating, Maintaining, and destroying. But in Ayyavazhi right from the dawn of Kaliyan all the powers of Sivan and Nathan were handed over to Thirumal and they started performing Austirity for the Dawn of Dharma Yukam. By this, Akilam indirectly states that in this present Kali Yukam Thirumal was all in all, but Hinduism remains saying that each of trimurti were performing their own works of creating, Maintaining, and destroying. This is the difference and I suggest that while merging great care should be taken regarding it. Also I suggest that while merging it is better to create a sub-heading inside the article Trimurti, on the way by which Ayyavazhi view them especially, Thirumal.Thank you. - Vaikunda Raja

But it does raise some confusion. I sent him a message that the ayya vazhi web sites all state the Trimurti concept so there is no difference as far as I know.

This is what I wrote: for your Trimurti comment, I think your comment might add some confusion. according to the ayyavazhi web sites, sri vaikundar preached that the aspects of God are the same, and the fact that Sivan and Nathan gave the powers to Vishnu does not mean that Vishnu is all in One. So I think the Trimurti concept in smartism is the same as ayyavazhi.

see for example, "Worship of one God "Even to pundits, what to speak of common people, it is very difficult to grasp the different manifestations of the almighty God. Today, we see these pundits discriminate between one God and another. Lord Vaikuntar preached that Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are one and the same God. He asked the people to wear a turban on their heads and wear a long dhoti while worshipping. He preached against praying to the manifestations such as demi-gods and other devatas who are mostly worshipped by the people for material boons and favours. He strongly advised worshiping the one and only God and nothing else. He also asked the people to worship God five times a day." from http://www.ayyavaigundar.org/avatar.htm#12

Raj2004 23:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I discussed with Vaikunda Raja: He said, "Like Smartism Ayyavazhi also says that three god heads were the different forms of a same God. " This will clarify.

Raj2004 09:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I've merged the three stubs with this this article; it might still belong in Trimurti, but at least it's more substantial for now. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:04, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging to Trimurthi

I think it is better to merge it to trimurthi rather than Ayyavazhi mythology. And I suggest to create a seperate heading inside to state the view of Ayyavazhi about them, especially Thirumal. - Vaikunda Raja

To my understanding of what Vaikunda Raja is saying, the three Godheads, Sivan-Nathan-Thirumal, are different from the trinity in Ayya Vaikudar (Muthukutty's body; Sampooranathevan, who ascended to the Ultimate Soul; and the spirit of Narayana). Despite the oneness emphasis, the manner in which manifestations of God are presented seems to me to indicate that these manifestations have their own importance, despite their oneness (am I making any sense?). Maybe the creation of an article as follows would serve this project:

Title: "The Godhead in Ayyavazhi"

1. Ayyavazhi-A monothestic faith

2. The Triune Godhead

2a. Sivan

2b. Nathan

2c. Thirumal

3. Devas, Yamas, Ultimate Soul, and such

4. The incarnation of God in Ayya Vaikundar

4a. Muthukutty's body;

4b. Sampooranathevan, who ascended to the Ultimate Soul; and

4c. The Spirit of Narayana.

It seems to me that the articles on Ayyavazhi must rectify the confusion between the many manifestations of God and the unity of God, and doing it on one page seems better to me than on separate pages. So, I am in favor of a merge, as I suggested above. Anyway, my $0.02. Steven McCrary 05:49, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Steve, to compare with Advaita, Ekam is Nirguna Brahman. The various forms of God, Saguna Brahman, is akin to Trimurti

I think that's what I had concluded after talking with Vaikunda.

Raj2004 01:00, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ayyavazhi God Heads

Here the Image shows the system of God Heads in Ayyavazhi.The 'Ekam' (Ultimate Oneness) represents the Ultimate Soul. The 'Imm' represents, on one hand 'a voice', on the other hand 'a holy spirit'. The 'Satthu' represents the Creative force. The 'Sivam' represents, on one hand 'the whole Mass' exists, and on the other hand the 'Positive creative Force'.The 'Sakthi' represents on one hand 'the whole Energy' exists, and on the other hand 'Negative Creative Force'. The Natham represents 'a Voice'. Then the sky and Earth, and so on - வைகுண்ட ராஜா.