User talk:Thoar Varenkamp

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[edit] Genseiryu

Hello Thoar! Welcome again to Wikipedia! I see you created another name, your full and real name this time. Nice! I also saw your edits on Genseiryu. It's also nice to see that this time you are not so destructive as last times! Maybe we can finally come to an understanding...
About your edits:
The part where you put <!- "For example...was Taido" belongs to the W.G.K.F. article -> I have copied indeed to the WGKF article and in the Genseiryu article I have edited the text a little bit. I hope this is now to your satisfaction. I believe it's neutral and honest. You can't deny the facts he wrote books about Genseiryu (1964 and mid 1970s) and occasionally gave lessons to high rank Genseiryu instructors. Then I am not even mentioning the examinations and appointments of Head Instructors (which are also facts, but disputed by IGKF).
The part where you put <!- the last sentence belongs to the W.G.K.F. article -> (about the book) I don't agree with you. It's a fact that these kata are trained in Genseiryu very thoroughly. You don't train them, but that's because your style is Genseiryu Butokukai. However I have changed it to prevent another edit war. We want to keep it NPOV as much as possible... -- MarioR 6 July 2005 19:35 (UTC)

Hello Mario, as you have noticed I have put these "tags", or whatever they are called, into the lines. Because, I think, these are points we have some differences about it. I did not do this because of my own satisfaction, or something like that. I did this for both you and me, so this way I hope it would be more neutral. About these points we can discuss as long as we can, weither it is true or not, but I hoped this was a better way.
Just like you mentioned
that's because your style is Genseiryu Butokukai
This is also one of these points we can discuss as long as we can. We have some differences about it.
And besides, if I am doing Genseiryu Butokukai as a style, then I guess Mr. Konno also wanted to join this style... Because he wrote and mentioned the name of Mr. Tosa (and Mr. Seiken Shukumine) on diploma's and passports in his early days (in the beginning of the establishment of the KLM Karate Club). The evidence about it is not even five meters away from me... Thoar Varenkamp 7 July 2005 00:13 (UTC)
Okay, we don't have to discuss it into eternity of course. That's why I have already changed it, hopefully to your satisfaction. If there still are points of "eternal discussion", please use those tags again. Then I or we can see about that. Anyway, it's good to see we can finally talk in a civilized way!
About Genseiryu Butokukai: the evidence that you are training this style is lying around everywhere: it's Tosa's style and organization, he trained Peter Lee, Peter Lee trained your father, your father trains you. Therefore you train Butokukai! There's no discussion possible, unless when you keep your "eyes wide shut"... But okay, let's stop that discussion. I have altered the text in the article anyway (about Genseiryu training the kata from Shin Karatedo Kyohan thoroughly). Besides, what's in a name? We all practise karate, that's a fact! I don't mind if my karate is called Genseiryu, Shotokan, Wado, Kyokushin, Goju-ryu, Shito-ryu or whatever, I have a great teacher who was a world champion, so I believe he knows what he's doing. The name doesn't change his capabilities. That's how you should feel about your teacher too! Who cares if it's called Butokukai, as long as he's a good teacher?!?
Now about Sensei Konno: he never wanted to join Butokukai. This is what Peter Lee claims (one of his many false claims) just to shed a shade over Mr. Konno, just to slander his name. However, maybe even Peter Lee believes it's true, since he has been told by Mr.Tosa. Peter of course believes everything Mr.Tosa says... Therefore in this case it might be very well possible that even Peter Lee believes this lie. Anyway, Mr.Konno does Genseiryu "according Shin Karatedo Kyohan" and never ever wanted to join Butokukai. I have also seen the names on such a diploma I think you're talking about. These were certificates used in the 1990s. Kunihiko Tosa was mentioned as advisor on these certificates, as well as Sensei Shukumine and some others. Later these certificates were changed and Tosa's name removed. So I don't see your point in mentioning this 'evidence'. What is it supposed to prove? -- MarioR 7 July 2005 09:51 (UTC)

Kunihiko Tosa was never an advisor. And besides, if he was an advisor, it is kind of strange, don't you think? A sensei who is doing "Genseiryu Butokukai", giving advice to somebody who is doing "Genseiryu". Just think about it. Thoar Varenkamp 8 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)

Anton Geesink is also advisor for the KLM Karateclub and he is not even Karate but Judo. You can be an advisor in other things besides the style itself... So there's absolutely nothing 'strange' about that... Besides, Butokukai is derived from Genseiryu and there are not so much differences. There is absolutely no problem functioning as a technical advisor for Genseiryu (except on Ten-Chi-Jin kata)... So what's there to think about? -- MarioR 8 July 2005 16:23 (UTC)
I don't agree with Mario and Thoar:
Thoar doubts the fact that Tosa was an advisor of KLM Karate Club, which was more an official function instead of really actively advizing something. Probably Tosa accepted this function because he wanted someone with the skills and reputation of Sensei Konno to enter his organization. Actually Sensei Konno never wanted to become a part of Butokukai. During this time Sensei Konno had contact with Tosa and also with Sensei Shukumine. Of course the contact with Sensei Shukumine was more important because this was the founder of Genseiryu. The truth is Sensei Konno was never interested becoming member of the organization of Tosa. On the contrary Tosa wanted him to join. But Tosa never succeeded to convince Sensei Konno enough.
I am Sorry I must disagree with Mario about a few points because Mario proved to be a very correct man that is fighting against some fake Danish man that was kicked out of several organization and schools and who is lying around to become a big man. Unfortunately by kissing up to Tosa he succeeded to get some fake 5th dan which is not recognized by the danish Karate Federation. He even asked for the certificates before he went to Japan the first time. What a mentality? But now to the point which I don't agree: Butokukai is completely different to the Genseiryu taught by Sensei Shukumine. Not only the Kata differ in techniques and order but especially the way of executing techniques are very different. Butokukai techniques are very similar to the techniques of Shotokan. That is also not so strange if you consider the background of Tosa who practized Shotokan before Sensei Shukumine became his teacher. Also this organization is training the basic Kata of Shotokan and not the basic kata of Genseiryu. So there is really a lot difference between Butokukai and Genseiryu as a style. By the way I like Shotokan very much but it is is just different from Genseiryu
I found out also the behavior is very different if you compare Genseiryu practitioner Mario as an honest hard training man and the lying Danish butokukai man that keeps on insulting and threatening people and if he is attacked back starts crying for help what a brave man. Attacking and ones he get hit back start crying and asking others for help--212.127.137.2 8 July 2005 22:14 (UTC).
Thank you very much for clearing that up! Apparently the differences between Genseiryu and Butokukai are greater than I thought. Also thanks for describing the situation with sensei Konno and Tosa. You did a better job than I did. Now it must be clear to anyone... -- MarioR 17:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Number, I agree with you with some points and I don't agree with you with some other points. First of all, I guess you didn't saw my first rule:
Kunihiko Tosa was never an advisor.
Off course, I know what you are going to say, and that would be "He was". But he wasn't. Off course you would ask your teacher and he would say "Yes, he was an advisor". But then again, you won't listen to me, if I say "He was never an advisor". But notice this: there aren't any signatures of both Kunihiko Tosa and Seiken Shukumine on the passports and diploma's. On these, you can only see the names and their "functions".
But on the other hand, I do agree with you when you are talking about behaviour. Since I remember our last encounter, number, there was absolutely a difference in the behaviour. Just look at it. Both you and my father/teacher were discussing, like a discussion should be. But I don't know if you was aware of the behaviour of your teacher(??). When both you and my teacher were discussing, your teacher just talked right through it. Well, I guess that is a behaviour of a honest hard training man, right? Also at the same encounter, I asked you something. But I waited until I get my oppertunity (on the contradistinction of.... you know who I mean). Then you anwsered, but then your teacher also was talking right through it (again..). But I guess you didn't bother about that, don't you, number?. But just like I said, I guess that is a behaviour of a honest hard training man.
And besides, I wonder.. Did you ever asked or talked with Mr. Takahashi of Ryounkai, about your sensei? I mean if you wanted to know the history about Genseiryu, here in the Netherland, I guess Mr. Takahashi plays also an important role in it..
Thoar Varenkamp 15:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Thoar,
If you say so clearly that Mr.Tosa was not an advisor to show his cooperation. Did you ask him that? Or did your father/teacher ask him? Or did you get the information from Peter Larsen and is he saying that he asked him? You sound really sure about that. Please get the information directly from Mr.Tosa. Then I will reply accordingly. I will not involve Mr. Takahashi in this discussion, he is doing Ryounkai which is a style that is derived from Genseiryu and is quite similar to Genseiryu. They are training Ten-, Chi-, Jin-I no Kata like Genseiryu is doing. I don't think Mr. Takahashi wants to be involved in your discussion.
Best regards,
Number--212.127.137.2 07:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
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