Talk:Thoughtcrime
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[edit] Involuntary commitment and affirmative action
I'm not sure how Affirmative Action is related to any thoughtcrime concept.
People should consider that mental health/mental hygiene/involuntary commitment laws are actually providing for Thoughtcrimes. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:47 Sep 18, 2002 (UTC)
[edit] China
Interesting article by John Derbyshire claiming that China (PRC) formerly sought to restrict thoughtcrimes but no longer does http://www.olimu.com/WebJournalism/Texts/Commentary/OderintDumMetuant.htm
[edit] Chemical behavior restraint
What crime is more a Thoughtcrime than taking illegal drugs?
See Defending the boundaries of human identity and The War on Drugs and the Holocaust -Second Cousins
- This is highly debatable. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:33, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Crimethink
labelling unapproved thoughts with the Newspeak term thoughtcrime. The [Newspeak] term is "crimethink". --Random|832 13:42, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Democratic socialist
The remarks on whether Orwell was a democratic socialist in the section on thought crime are not particularly balanced and are in any case out of place here - a reference across to the main Orwell article would serve better. I may edit Linuxlad 09:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- As the person who put some of this detail in I suppose I had better defend it. I felt some kind of perspective was needed on where the idea came from over and above saying 'it is from 1984'. Also the scope of the term is important as Orwell was careful to try and limit his political language and avoid making very broad generalisations. He probaby did not mean thoughtcrime to be compared directly with religious heresy although it is right to show how the term has grown. My aim was to show that he probably thought of thoughtcrime because he was accused of it himself. MeltBanana 11:36, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not clear to me that we are on the same wavelength here - I generally agree with the tenor of what you've written above
- BUT my issue is whether the statement that Orwell considered himself to be a democratic socialist is a) relevant here; and b) especially whether it needs to be linked HERE to his strong criticism of the Stalinist model (and its sympathisers) and whether that criticism strengthens or weakens that claim to be democratic socialist. The line taken is unnecessarily contentious, and issue is much better treated in the main Orwell article.
Linuxlad 12:43, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see what you mean, unnecessary information when the real matter is thoughtcrime. I'm uncertain if it simply better to do away with the sentence starting Although... or to emphasise his opposition to Stalin. You do get some very strange views about Orwell on the net an I probably go off the deep end sometimes seeing him misrepresented.MeltBanana 14:13, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Unexplained deletion
A section called "Religious thoughtcrime", consisting of the single sentence:
- The Christian concept of Internal sin, analogous to "thoughtcrime", started with Jesus's teaching in Matthew's gospel.
...was deleted here without explanation. It's not an unreasonable assertion being made, though I suppose it's debatable, and might constitute original research... Comments? GTBacchus 19:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Indeed unexplained, as I came to the discussion page wondering why no religious thoughtcrime is mentioned in the article. I think it should be re-included.
[edit] Thought police
For some strange reason, the thought police article was deleted and wrapped into this article, despite the fact that thoughtcrime is a far less commonly used term. The latter garners four times the number of goofle hits as the latter. Perhaps this oddity of suppression can be explained by politically correct bias? Ombudsman 21:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] copyright issue?
the last section of the article (in the section concerning the Canadian researcher), some of the source text is copied verbatim. is there a copyright issue with this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.125.168.193 (talk • contribs).
[edit] Theology/Thoughtcrime
This is a fascinating passage:
- In the New Testament, Jesus states, "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28).
Could/should it be expanded upon? Maerk 13:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think so, but not in this article. I think that the term "thoughtcrime" lends itself to creating false prejudgements on the part of the reader and could easilt be seen as implying something offensive. 72.179.144.152 16:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Modern accusations
I fixed the incorect information about Doe v. City of Lafayette. The 7th Circuit ultimately upheld the ban. Ocap8
[edit] Negative role played by some wiki contributors and sysops
Although wiki articles are extremely exposed and vulnerable to contributors acting in the role of the Thought Police the real danger lies in the power of system operators who can block any contributor for any reason including their own bias and inability to tolerate a different, opposing or independent point of view or do so simply to indulge in ego based power trips. The Thought Police serve as the icon of oppression, intolerance and as the supreme enemy of free speech.
[edit] Parallel in history
One interesting parallel is the treatment of badges of chairman Mao during the Maoist era. Citizens were told to keep their badges clean and well represented. A portrait of Mao had to be presented in residences. Inspections of whether the portrait of Mao was presented correctly were enforced on citizens. Some chinese reported the infliction of psychological pressure was making them think they were actually guilty of "thought crime" against Mao.
[edit] Drug Laws and Thoughtcrime
As mentioned above, some argue that the ultimate motivation of some drug laws against relatively innocuous drugs like cannabis is to prevent one thinking differently from the ruling government, in effect getting high or altered states of consciousness become a form of thoughtcrime.
[edit] Meaning ? Context?
The article doesn't define thoughtcrime. It wd be a good idea to define it in the context of the book. --Gurubrahma 06:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] In the Media
The statement about Minority Report is wrong...The "precogs" convict people of "future crime" based entirely on foretelling. The book/movie is actually contrary to thoughtcrime. In fact the implicit moral is that precognition can show the appearance of a crime when intent is not evident. It didn't matter if you were thinking about it, only that the precog saw you perform the act.
[edit] Purported instances
The lengthy essay weakly tries to label some unpopular government restrictions, in the West, to "thoughtcrime". First of all, this is not what Orwell was talking about. He meant trying to control the way people actually think. Secondly, the analogy between the Purported Instances and 1984 is not clarified. This is original research, at best. --Uncle Ed 22:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Criticism section
[edit] In Canada
In Canada certain credentialed medical practitioners may, apparently at their sole discretion, make state sanctioned investigations into and diagnosis of "mental illness" that can involve or result in involuntary detainment and "treatment" of the investigated persons. These diagnoses appear to be based at least in part, and in some cases entirely upon, the investigator's perceptions of the subject's thoughts and beliefs. This aspect of diagnosis is manifest in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) glossary definition of "delusion" which begins; "A false belief based on...", and is found on page 821 of the DSM-IV-TR. Significantly the presence of "delusions" seem to form a primary criterion for the diagnosis of the majority of DSM-IV-TR "psychotic" disorders including Schizophrenia and Scizoaffective Disorder (Criterion A1 in the case of Schizophrenia). The DSM-IV-TR also states that "No laboratory findings have been identified that are diagnostic of Schizophrenia". This statement is also applied to Major Depressive episodes and Manic episodes.
The application of DSM-IV-TR criteria to the various pieces of federal health and provincial mental health law in Canada seems to still occur in spite of their conflict in this respect with Section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which guarantees the "fundamental" "freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression". Part VII -- General, of the Canadian Constitution Act, 1982 states that "any law that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Constitution "...(which contains the Charter)..."is, to the extent of the inconsistency, of no force or effect".
The potential for state sanctioned involuntary detainment and treatment exists pursuant to these health acts. The Ontario Mental Health Act for example contains references to circumstances under which involuntary admission to psychiatric "hospitals" can occur as a result of such diagnosis.
Incidentally legal involvement and involuntary detainment and treatment is not fundamental to the DSM-IV-TR nor are implications of violent behavior at frequencies exceeding that of the general population attributed to those diagnosed. To a significant degree courts are in fact cautioned against the use of DSM-IV diagnosis in the DSM-IV introduction itself in its introductory section entitled Use of DSM-IV in Forensic Settings.
Indeed the position of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, stated in The Confidentiality of Psychiatric Records and the Patient's Right to Privacy(2000-21S), holds that "in recent years, serious incursions have been made by governments, powerful commercial interests, law enforcement agencies, and the courts on the rights of persons to their privacy."
In the Canadian criminal justice system, again, in spite of the Charter freedoms, individuals continue to be subjected to discrimination based on DSM IV diagnosis within the context of part XX.1of the Criminal Code of Canada. This part sets out provisions for, among other things, court ordered attempts at "treatment" before individuals receive a trial as described in section 672.58 of the Criminal Code.
Also provided for are external court ordered "psychiatric assessments" that may involve detention and the selective procurement of anecdotal accounts, psychiatric records, and records of past diagnosis and treatment. This process as it occurs in the Canadian Province of Ontario is illustrated in The Forensic Mental Health System In Ontario published by The Centre For Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto.
With a finding of "Not Criminally Responsible on Account of Mental Disorder" as described in section 672.34 of the Criminal Code lifelong restrictions on freedom, mandatory "treatment", and indefinite detention subject to periodic non-judicial review are possible well beyond the scope of set limits for detention for those found to be criminally responsible for the same or even much more serious offenses. Section 672.12 of the Criminal Code states "The court may make an assessment order at any stage of proceedings against the accused of its own motion, on application of the accused or, subject to subsections (2)and (3), on application of the prosecutor" implying that the test is not universally applied.
I cut the entire section above, because it is not about "thoughtcrime" but about alleged abuses of psychiatric diagnoses in Canada. None of the abuses document any political aspects, so I conclude this diatribe is in opposition to the use of psychiatric power to label people "crazy" because of false beliefs in general.
Perhaps a better place for this information would be an article entitled Psychiatry in Canada, or more generally Psychiatric abuse. --Uncle Ed 19:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree this whole Canadian section just doesn't look right for this article and needs to be in its own article. Most (if not all) countries in the world have mechanisms for "sectioning" (a UK term) under some Mental health act and I would imagine that Canada is no different. Thoughtcrime is about identifying that which challenges the ruling authority so the Soviet era section is more relevant and the Canadian section less relevant unless we have cites that show that the certification of people was for the purposes of maintaining the political status quo. That doesn't really seem to be the case with Canada whereas it does with the Soviets.Ttiotsw 23:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
