Talk:Thou

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[edit] Important note - "Thou" is not always archaic

This intelligent and learned article is, nonetheless, often in danger of lapsing into giving the impression that the use of "thou" in normal speech is entirely dead. This is not true. In the north of England, its use still sounds entirely natural when spoken with one or other of the northern accents.

Could I suggest that writers take care not to imply that it is no longer in daily use anywhere except for effect? I have tried to rephrase some parts to eliminate this implication but there are still some sections which convey the impression that "thou" is entirely dead. People don't go around saying, "Pandas are extinct," dismissing the existence of those few still surviving. Equally, the fact that "thou" is still in use after several hundred years might be said to be one of its more interesting features.

I have moved the next comment up from further down the comment page. It seems to be the only one to have made this point previously. Adrian Robson 08:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I have added the paradigm for the Yorkshire dialect version of 'tha' which seems relevant here. Although of a high quality, I felt the article had somewhat underplayed the use of surviving forms of 'thou' in rural England - most notably in Yorkshire and the South West. I will endeavour to find the South West forms for inclusion here if markedly different from the Yorkshire forms.

Bruce

---Regions--- "Thou is primarily unused in modern English apart from in some of the regional dialects of England"

can anyone add, which regions?


[edit] Sources

In view of the fact that "thou" continues in use in parts of England, it would be nice to see a source to support this sentence: "Thou had almost gone out of usage entirely in most English dialects by the year 1650."

I would guess that in 1650, in the very early days of the expansion of English around the world, most English dialects were confined to England. If "thou" had almost gone out of usage in these dialects, it seems odd that the modern use of "thou" now only continues, apparently, in England, where it was virtually extinct 350 years earlier. Has its level of usage been unchanged (restricted mostly to Yorkshire) since 1650? Any clarification from reliable sources would be welcome. Adrian Robson 08:37, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Since no sources for this statement have been produced, I have dropped this statement from the article. At the same time, I have added Samuel Johnson's statement in the 18th century that in formal situations you is used instead of thou, implying that thou was still informal at the time he was writing. Adrian Robson 10:10, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Thou and the Deity

Question: was "thou" used to address God because of the singular/plural distinction in Hebrew (as the article says in one place) or because God is supposed to be one's intimate (as it says in another place)? Or is there even linguistic consensus on this? I can easily see it being considered religiously incorrect to refer to the "one God" with a plural pronoun, while addressing God as an "intimate" seems a bit contrived to me. But, I am not a linguist. Gwimpey 09:21, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

In languages that observe the T-V distinction, God is usually tu or du; at least He is in French. These languages do not have the number issues posed by the modern English invariant use of "you"; both forms are lively, and the intimate form is used for God.
In actual English usage, thou is not felt as intimate and informal, but rather as a part of an archaizing, highfalutin' grand style. In the history of Bible translation, thou was used originally to convey the singular/plural difference; in a later version, thou was used exclusively to address God. Smerdis of Tlön 16:33, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Was used to reflect the singular/plural distinction (as literally translated from Hebrew and Greek); became a marker of the intimate/formal distinction (in religious as in secular usage); is used (sometimes misused) in frozen religious registers, poetry, and tacky archaism. Which IIRC is what the article says. eritain 00:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Quaker "thee"

Perhaps someone with more experience than I would like to add to this page remarks on the more-or-less modern usage of "thee" by certain members of the Quaker community. In which usage, the subjective and objective forms are both "thee," the possessive is "thy/thine" and the pronoun takes a singular third-person verb, e.g., "I hope thee is well."


[edit] Youse

"Youse" is not just American English as the article says it is. My dialect (Geordie) uses "youse" and its one of the oldest dialects in English, its even older than the country of America itself!!! I think that instead of saying "...some American dialects..." it should say "...some British and American dialects...".

Q: shouldn't it be e.g. rather than i.e. in "yous or youse (i.e. youse guys) is sometimes used" near the bottom of the article?

Is "you" just a "thou" spelled with a thorn instead of a you? And "ye" a "thee" spelled with a thorn? In other words are these actually different words or just artifacts from a change in alphabet? Rmhermen 14:01 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

No; thou represents Old English þu, while ye is the nominative case that represents Old English ge or 3e. You is the old accusative case of ge, Old English eow. When Middle English scriveners inexplicably omitted the needful letter thorn for the digraph th, the letter Þ was no longer recognised. Printers substituted y for it, resulting in spellings like ye for the and so forth. This is how you get Ye Olde Internet Cafe and similar bogus spellings. But thou and ye are quite distinct. -- IHCOYC 15:44 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Okay, but are thou and you distinct? (And are thee and ye distinct?) — Paul A 04:13 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Yes. The second person pronouns of Old English were:
Singular:

Nom. þû   
Gen. þîn
Dat. þê
Acc. þê(c)

which became thou, thine, thee, thee in early Modern English

Plural:

Nom. 3ê
Gen. êower
Dat. êow
Acc. êow

which became ye, your, you, you in early Modern English

The two paradigms each lead to the separate forms seen in Early Modern English. Ye is only a nominative case form, and thee only an accusative case form. If this doesn't answer the question, I may not be understanding it. -- IHCOYC 04:43 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

No, I think I just didn't understand your answer. :o)
Thank you. — Paul A 04:57 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I restored the phrasing of my reference to the Mighty Thor. The purpose of that phrase was to make certain it was understood that I was talking about the comic book superhero rather than the Norse god. The comic book by Stan Lee and/or Jack Kirby is a rich lode of Thee and Thou, and shows the use of the pronoun for colour in a context somewhat remote from poetry or religion. -- IHCOYC 03:56 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I stand corrected. - Litefantastic 15:49, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It seems I must wage a never-ending battle to retain the references to God, Achilles, the skylark, and Thor. The point of the references is to show that thou, when used by relatively recent writers, implies something exactly opposite from intimate familiarity or condescension. In case anyone doubts that the pronoun has in fact been used this way by more recent writers, I have supplied external links containing references to the Revised Standard Version, a poem by Shelley, a 1921 version of a passage from the Iliad, and what appears to be a fan fiction. Please take note of this before simply removing these references. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:42, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Youse is commonly used in Australian vernacular - possibly from the strong irish influence on the australian dialect.

[edit] You'ns

When I was in the Air Force, I had a roommate from Youngstown, Ohio who used you'ns for second person plural. Is this a regional slang? RickK 19:44, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it is heard at least in South Midlands dialect of American English. Rmhermen 19:54, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Y'all and Yous

In this article, it's said that "Yous" is the Northern US slang for the plural case of "You" and that "Y'all" is the Southern US slang for the same.

As someone who lives in the Northern US, I would just like to point out that this is completely inaccurate. "Y'all" is the "correct" plural case of "You" in the regional dialect of the Northwestern US (Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Montana, etc.). Since "Y'all" is used as the plural case in the Northwest and the South (both east and west), it would seem that "Yous" is limited to the Northeastern US -- e.g., it's a "yankee" term. The other three quarters of the US used "Y'all".

I can see how someone who lives in the Eastern US might make this mistake, as Easterners often seem to forget that there's an entire country out there beyond just the east coast, but this inaccuracy still needs to be corrected.

I should also note that the word "slang" is being used incorrectly as well. The word "slang" refers to a word being used in a way that is different from its actual definition. In order to be slang, something must first be an actual word. A good example of slang is using the word "cool" to denote something that one considers to be good (although this particular case may not be the best example, as I understand that modern dictionaries are beginning to include this definition of "cool" alongside the more archaic uses). "Y'all" and "Yous" can't be slang, since they don't have other legitimate definitions.

"Y'all" is also a conjunction of two words, meaning "You all", which isn't truly gramatically incorrect. A conjunction is just a shortening of two words into one, and they can only be "incorrect" if their meaning isn't obvious. Just because it's not listed in a dictionary like the word "isn't" doesn't mean it isn't correct -- especially in the 21st century when almost every English-speaking person in the world knows what the conjunction "Y'all" means. "Yous" on the other hand, is just an attempt to pluralize the already plural "You" by people who have a poor grasp of the English language. It's a gramatical error (and a very sad one, at that), not a conjunction used in place of a grammatically correct term such as "You all".

I thought 'yous' is being used in Scotland, and is mostly a scottish-english form, this should be confirmed and integrated into the article.
Concur on "y'all" in Washington State. (Though I used it only sporadically until I became fluent in a T-V language (Ukrainian), whereupon I found it indispensable. Shades of Sapir and Whorf!) Interesting to ask: What is the plural in each area? I've never liked "y'all's" and settled on "your all's" after reading it in All the Pretty Horses. It's also attested for speakers from the Intermountain West (and can be heard in the movie Napoleon Dynamite).
As to the cocksure proclamations just above on "yous" being a "gramatical error" rather than a "conjunction" -- both your nebulous appeals to grammatical correctness and your point about dictionaries being secondary to usage would be better taken if you expressed them clearly, used technical terms in their precise senses, and spelled them correctly. I agree with what you have to say about real usage and the way it trumps the proclamations (self-important, and rarely accurate more than seven times in eight) of schoolmarms. But I don't see why "youse" is a less logical or less intelligible plural than "you all." (Is "we" a less logical plural than "me all"?) I don't see why actual, understood usage wouldn't make "youse" just as meaningful, useful, and "correct" as it makes "y'all." And I don't see why the talk page of an encyclopedia is a good place to make arbitrary pronouncements on the sad erroneousness of people who weren't raised where you were. (Dang those French! They've got a different word for everything! Must be a poor grasp of language. How sad.)
OK, got that off my chest. Might be wise to delete it before I post. Naah. eritain 01:20, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, 'youse' is prevalent and widely recognised in Scotland. "Do youse yins want to go tae the pub efter work?" I'd change the article but that whole section is so firmly US-centric that I'm not sure where to slip it in. It would look confused or incongruous without a solid rewrite. I shall give it a go, as objectors can always revert! :) 88.107.112.147 13:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

--- Yinz ---

"Yinz" is a form used in the Pittsburgh area. It is a Scotch/Irish term derived from "you ones". Pittsburghers refer to themselves as "yinzers" and there is even a local magazine _The New Yinzer_.

Where hast "thou" gone? Why did we stop using this logically essential term? It's lack leads to uneccesary and profound confusion. For example, a phone conversation with a store employee;

A: "Why did my account not get credited?"

E: "The money was never received"

A: "But I sent it to you"

E: "I did not receive it"

The obvious intent was second person plural, not singular. When Orwell speaks of changing language to change thought, this is what he meant. How did the individuals relation to society and other individuals change when "thou" went out of usage? Was it Descarte's fault?

I see what you mean, although amusingly under the t-v distinction you'd have the same problem because you'd probably be calling the the person you (plural/unfamiliar) instead of thee anyway.81.153.160.209 00:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Just bursting in here to ask what on earth "y'all", "yinz" etc have got to do with an article about "Thou"?! FWIW I feel that it ought to be somewhere else. After all, if you were to start looking for entries about "y'all" or "all y'all" would you even consider starting with "Thou"? TraceyR 07:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] equivalent to german formal address "sie"?

Q: Is there any equivalent to the german formal address "sie"? A: Yes, there is. It's "you" and its various forms. AlexR 14:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's rare that the formal form is derived from the word for "she", though, I think the old plural forms seem much more common in West European languages.

The german formal "Sie" isn't derived from the female form "she" but from the 3rd person plural. Compare "can you...?" would be translated: "Können Sie...?". "She can" is translated "sie kann"; "They can" is "sie können". The formal "Sie" always uses the verb in 3rd person plural.

OK, but the informal 3rd person pronoun is "ihr", and if I'm not mistaken, both the formal singular and plural is originally derived from the word for "she"...
No, see German_grammar#Pronouns for Standard German pronouns. Forms used to address people have been du (thou), er (he), ihr (you) and Sie (They). In order to show respect, the plural was used, and in order to show distance, the third person was used. Two of these forms are now archaic, with only du (informal) and Sie (formal) left. Actually, in modern use, the distinction between du and Sie does not really express the attitude towards the adressee, but is rather depending on the situation, a matter of convention, so to say. -- Sloyment 01:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

THE GOD OF WAR SMITES YOU FOR YOUR INABILITY TO FORM A PROPER LANGUAGE--God_of War 06:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Still "legal" to use it or not?

Hello!
I would just like to know, whether "thou" is still allowed to use in modern English, or not. If yes, I would also like to know the following:

  1. How is it pronounced, [θəʊ] [θuː] or somehow else (and how its forms are as well)?
  2. What is its form of to be (also "are" or something else) and the short form?
  3. Is there a special still existing flexion form of verbs (sugh as the siffix-like "-s" in the third person of singular), and, if yes, what is it?

Yours scinscierly
84.171.231.118 19:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

All of these questions are addressed in the article. Rmhermen 21:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch examples

Added dutch examples

81.69.188.48 17:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Why? What do they add that isn't already covered with the examples present? User:Angr 14:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the Dutch examples are different from both Old English and German, (apparently, the Dutch cognate to thou isn't even archaic anymore, but completely lost in most dialects and everyday speech.) I remove the examples. 惑乱 分からん 11:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Substantial edit

I've just made several fairly substantial edits to the page, in an attempt to address the concerns raised at the featured article review:

  • Rewriting the lede. I've expanded the lede to summarize all the key points of the article and to mention all the topics important enough to merit a section heading. I've also removed the "listy intro." This should address Yannismarou's concern that the lede was not in compliance with WP:LEAD.
  • Section reorganization. I've made the Etymology section part of the Historical usage section (previously called the History section). I've adjusted the section header names in part to comply with the Manual of Style, and in part to clarify the contents of the sections. This should address the concerns at the featured article review that the article "has very short sections" and "may need some better section organization."
  • Copyediting. I haven't done a thorough copyedit (and I haven't yet proofed my own edits thoroughly yet) but I made some changes where they seemed appropriate.

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes; if anyone is unhappy with the changes I've just made, please feel free to revert or improve them. Peirigill 10:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but how can you misspell "lead" even after looking it up in the style guide? 惑乱 分からん 16:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Lede is old newspaper jargon for the first sentences in a story. It was coined by journalists so they could distinguish lede lines from lead stories, or lead type in the printing press. It isn't a typo in this context. - Smerdis of Tlön 19:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's not a misspelling, actually, it's a valid alternative spelling. Since printers used to use lead in printing, they starting spelling lead "lede" to distinguish them. User:Angr 19:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, alright, you learn something new every day... 惑乱 分からん 22:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The dual spelling is actually discussed in WP:LEAD itself. Peirigill 10:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Oops! Well, it used to be discussed there. I guess it was edited out. Peirigill 10:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] thorn^u

In the last sentence of the first paragraph, the author says that þ^u was used in Middle English as an abreviation of the word thou. No example or source is given for this. And, as I have understood þ was no longer in use during the days of Middle English. Therefor, if such an abreviation exist, it seems to me that "Middle English" as the author uses it is actually a misnomer for Old English and that þ^u is an abreviation of þu rather than thou. However, be the author correct, please show me wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.184.165.15 (talk) 02:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

Also the character shown in the last sentance of the first paragraph is wynn and not thorn. The writer needs to work on their early modern English alphabet. User:SKC 20:47 (UTC) 6 Feb 2007

[edit] notes in table

What do the notes in the declension table go to? Njál 01:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I found the notes in the history — I take it they were accidentally lost, and have replaced them. Njál 01:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who'rt thoo to be thoo'in me?

Several years ago, perhaps as many as fifteen, there was a programme on BBC Radio 4 into the continued use of "thou". One anecdote serves to illustrate two points which I found interesting: the pronunciation and the survival of the everyday use of the formal/informal formal/informal distinction within living memory.

The narrator related how, many years ago in England, he had heard a worker being reprimanded by his superior (I think it was on a farm) for speaking to him in the familiar form (pronounced "thoo", not "tha"):

"Who'rt thoo to be thoo'in me? Ah's you t' thoo!"

Unfortunately further salient details (e.g. region - I think it was somewhere in Yorkshire) have not stuck in my mind. Assuming (a) it was 15 years ago and (b) the narrator was at most 70 years old and (c) he had been at least 10 when he heard the conversation, this example must have taken place in the 1930s. Perhaps the BBC has a recording, even a transcript, of this programme. I'll see what I can find. TraceyR 07:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

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