Talk:Thomas Szasz

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[edit] English translation

Cher confrère, je trouve vos coordonnées sur le site AEP,sur lequel vous trouverez aussi les miennes [1]. nous pourrions échanger nos idées,l'avancée de nos travaux? Je participerai au congres international en Italie en octobre2005,et vous? bien cordialement. jean-yves métayer, LE HAVRE FRANCE

Quick translation of above for convenience:

Dear associate, I found your name and address on the AEP site, on which you will also find mine. http://zenartis.site.voila.fr We could exchange ideas, the progress of our work? I will take part in the international congress in Italy in October 2005, and you? very cordially jean-yves métayer LE HAVRE, FRANCE

I'm confused. Is the French haven talking to me? To Szasz? Dave 04:04, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

I removed "(This is a surprise to most people with serious mental llness and their families.)" because it implies that wikipedia has a stance on whether there are mental illnesses or not. The article is about Szasz's views, not the authors beliefs. Prem, Florida

Wikipedia doesn't take a position on whether there are mental illnesses? Does wikipedia acknowledge heart disease or cancer? Does wikipedia take notice of whether the earth is round? LOL! --Agiantman 02:10, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
No, it doesn't. That's what NPOV is all about. Kurt Weber 23:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Wrong! Wikipedia does take a stance about the most preposterous claims, the so-called due weight policy. ―Cesar Tort 22:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] explanation for deletion

I took the following sentence out:

"Moreover, serious mental illness is now regularly "approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion" and the evidence that schizophrenia and other serious mental illnesses are brain diseases is overwhelming."

for the following reasons: (1) mental illness is most definitely not approached scientifically; and (2) the evidence for mental illness being a brain disorder is distinctly underwhelming.

In support of my two points above, I offer:

- psychiatrists vote on what constitutes a mental disorder and gets included in the DSM - there is no objective way to determine (such as a biochemical test) any mental illness - psychiatric research is heavily subsidized by pharmaceutical companies - psychiatry has yet to find any biological basis for any mental illness - psychiatry is closer to criminal justice than to medicine - the biochemical imbalance theory is discredited by several factors, including spontaneous remission of schizophrenia even decades after diagnosis - the World Health Organization confirms that schizophrenics do better without treatment - Dr. Loren Mosher and others proved that non-drug therapy has better outcomes - the categories in the DSM are broad, vague and the symptoms overlap

Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] please use talk page before radically changing article

Again, I am taking the offending sentence out. "Moreover, serious mental illness is now regularly "approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion" and the evidence that schizophrenia and other serious mental illnesses are brain diseases is overwhelming."

There is nothing scientific about the approach to mental illness. There is no objective test for it. Symptoms are grouped together in the DSM and many conditions have overlapping symptoms. Psychiatric diagnosis is often in error. There is no "overwhelming" evidence that these conditions are brain diseases. Indeed, there is no credible evidence whatsoever. Schizophrenia might be associated with certain brain abnormalities but it is not clear which arose first, the abnormalities or the condition. Schizophrenics do best without psychiatric treatment, according to the World Health Organization. That doesn't do much for the brain disorder theory.

This is pure silliness. There is indeed overwhelming evidence that these conditions are neurobiological disorders. Here is a bibliography to review: [2]. The idea that people with schizophrenia do better without pyschiatric treatment is extreme POV and I doubt that any respectable organization holds that position. I am restoring that section and adding the cite.--65.87.105.2 20:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
The fact that there are article about a thing does not imply that this fact is true. Can you infer from the fact that there are a lot of articles and books about astrology that astrology is true and it can predict future?
About the allegged psychiatric prooves about biological disorder, who and how they made the tests? Psychiatrists have no way to make a test to prove what they belive. A psychiatrist told me that this is a very good thing becouse in this way nobody can tell them that their theory is wrong. Anyway anything that can not be check if it is false or not is not a thing that can be called science or that can call science in its behalf (see for instance Karl Popper). In many cases psychiatrists told that someone have done a measure that nobody has done. For instance they claim that it was scientific measured by neuroscientists that a reduction of serotonin level is present in depressed people's brain cells. However neuroscients neither have a way to measure such a level. For a non antipsychiatric point of view on this argument see for instance what have been found in a study ([3])that has really analized where the allegged prooves came from and what is behind the very rich market of antidepressive tratments. AnyFile 16:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

No, see, it's not "pure silliness." It's very accurate. Neither the Stanley Foundation nor its brainchild, the Treatment Advocacy Center, are accurate sources of information. Re schizophrenics doing better without psychiatrict treatment, this is not POV! This is what the World Health Organization found! And I'm thinking the World Health Organization is indeed a respectable organization, certainly more so than the preposterous Stanley Foundation. I think you should be doing your own research before telling others to do the same. Your tone is very offensive, by the way. Are you a psychiatrist? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 00:44, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

If the World Health Organization holds that position, please provide a citation. I can't find any support for your statement. From reading the WHO site, they seem to be quite supportive that caring for individuals with mental illness includes "provision with essential drugs" --24.55.228.56 03:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

They are very famous studies that Robert Whitaker deals with extensively in Mad in America. I will find the cite for you. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 04:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

PubMed has them but there's a charge to enter the site. [4] I'm sure one of the anti-psychiatry websites has a version up. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 04:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm a high school debater who uses Szasz's theories. I just wanted to say that the argument that mental illnesses are chemical imbalances is flawed for two reasons (at least from what I've read from Dr. Szasz's work):
1) While chemical imbalances may exist in the brain (I'm not a neurobiologist and wouldn't know), that doesn't mean that schizophrenia is a disease. While chemical imbalances might be diseases, emotional differences are not.
2) Because of the way the Therapeutic State functions according to Szasz, the state can label any personal behavior to be "dangerous" or unacceptable to society - therefore, any unwanted behavior is by fiat a disease.
To at least understand what Szasz talks about when he says mental illness doesn't exist, read his latest article in the Independent Review. I mean, who knows, maybe Szasz is wrong - but that's not for us to say. We're simply stating his theories, not presenting our own ideas of them (December 22, 2005).
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.161.65.116 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Carlton

In answer to your queries which were "rv - are you claiming that mental illnesses are NOT regularly approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion? Also, rv Scientology whitewashing"

Yes, I am saying that there is nothing scientific about how mental illnesses are approached and measured. Why on earth are you referring to civil libertarians as Scientologists??? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 05:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Claiming that mental illnesses are NOT regularly approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion doesn't pass the giggle test -- it's a factual statement that says nothing about how well or badly they do it (akin to saying "Some restaurant owners claim that McDonald's cooks hamburgers") and you've declined to provide any citations to the contrary.
Why on earth are you referring to civil libertarians as Scientologists? And where would this reference be? On the other hand, you deleted "Scientologists" in favor of "civil libertarians" (hence the "rv Scientology whitewashing" summary) -- would you mind showing me the ACLU's -- you know, actual civil libertarians -- official use of Szasz's arguments, as opposed to a Scientology front group appropriating the label?
Oh, and if you were paying attention, you might have noticed how to spell my name. --Calton | Talk 06:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not a question of how "well or badly they do it," because that is central to this issue - the scientific method includes making conclusions based on observable evidence that has empirical proof for it. A determination of mental illness, though, is completely subjective and means something different to each person - there is no standard as to what exactly is or isn't a mental disorder. So I'd agree that the people who practice psychiatry *think* they're practicing the scientific method, when it's quite clear that psychiatry is not science like geology is.

One only has to interview a psychiatrist to see how unscientific their brand of "medicine" is. And slurring people who are anti-psychiatry by calling them scientologists is common throughout all psychiatry-related wiki articles. If you're interested in the ACLU's position, check it out yourself. I don't actually take orders from anonymous posters. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 18:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hi, I'm one of the main authors of the libertarianism page, though I've been mostly absent from Wikipedia for a few months. I'm writing a paper on the subject and spending quite a bit of time on Szasz. I was wondering if:

  1. You would be interested in reading it. If nothing else, it will provide quite a bit of fodder for this article.
  2. You would be interested in telling me if there are any other good arguments against Szasz that I am missing
  3. You would be interested in telling me if I am being unfair to Szasz's argument in my paper and what counterarguments of his I am missing.

The paper is due Wednesday. If you are interested, email me or post your email address here so I can send you a rough draft. Thanks in advance, Dave (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] criticism section

The reference to mental illness being approached scientifically should come out, unless it is balanced by referring to the fact that there is no objective test for it and that the error rate in diagnosis is very high. The Stanley Research Institute is what bankrolls E. Fuller Torrey's Treatment Advocacy Center. The Stanleys' son has a mental illness and it's well known that families of the mentally ill promote a biochemical (i.e. blameless) theory of madness. Psychiatry is what separate from the rest of medicine and that should be noted here.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC (talk • contribs).

Dr. Torrey, the Stanley Research Institute, and the Treatment Advocacy Center are not the only ones who believe that severe and persistent mental illnesses (e.g., schizophrenia and bipolar disorder) are neurobiological brain disorders and that serious mental illness is now regularly "approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion. That is the opinion of the American Psychiatric Association (the international association of 36,000 psychiatrists), the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI), the President's New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Depression (NARSAD), the National Mental Health Association (NMHA) and every other mainstream organization on mental health issues. Szasz's view that mental illness is a myth is a fringe view long since discredited by modern psychiatry.--24.55.228.56 12:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You're correct that all the organizations that you list promote the neurobiological model. However, the APA's statement that mental illness is "approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion" is demonstrably false. The DSM contains merely checklists of symptoms which can be given any number of interpretations. Causation is simply not dealt with. A chemical imbalance is assumed, in spite of evidence to the contrary. That is not scientific. Many pro-psychiatry organizations are funded by Big Pharma, an obvious conflict of interest. You don't have to believe that mental illness is a myth (I certainly don't) in order to believe that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and a dangerous one. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:40, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, every legitimate psychiatric and psychological study on mental illness uses the scientific method. All of the cited studies by the Stanley Foundation follow the scientific method. Mental illness is indeed approached, measured, and tested in scientific fashion. The scientific method is as follows: 1.Define the question 2.Gather information and resources 3.Form hypothesis 4.Perform experiment and collect data 5.Analyze data 6.Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses 7.Publish results. The scientific method also involves peer review.--65.87.105.2 21:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

However, your argument falls apart at 6.Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses. The reason is that these conclusions are subjective and are heavily biased on a person's individual experience and not based upon any standard. For an example of how unique "mental illness" is to each individual and how psychiatrists can often draw false conclusions simply because they aren't basing their conclusions off of any facts, read the study by David Rosenhan in "Being Sane in Insane Places" (1973, Science).

65.87.105.2, we all know how the scientific method works. Psychiatry is flawed right from steps 1 through 7. Some examples -- 1. define the question -- psychiatrists vote on what constitutes a mental disorder at the APA convention every year. 3. form hypothesis -- psychiatry assumes without evidence that mental illness is the result of brain chemical imbalances. Then they disregard all evidence that works against them. That's not forming a hypothesis and testing it. Psychiatrists keep saying over and over "it's a brain disease" but it's just not supported by the evidence. If schizophrenia were actually found to have a basis in tissue pathology, we would have a new *physical* disease and treatment would be moved out of psychiatry into real medicine. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 18:08, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course, they DO have physical evidence of schizophrenia, including neuron loss over large portions of the brain in schizophrenic adolescents at a far greater rate and range than nonschizophrenic, and decreased activation of the frontal cortex. The difficulty in psychiatry is not in figuring out what is happening, but what the causation is - compare, for example, the James-Lange, Cannon-Bard, and Schacter theories of emotion. Saying "this occurs, and this makes this symptom vanish" is easy and empirical; the WHY is the hard part.
All that aside, while I'm sympathetic to Szasz's concerns over involuntary treatment, liberty, and improper medical therapy, there is plenty of empirical evidence to contradict some of his claims about mental disease (claims which, all things considered, contradict logic - if there's physical brain, it can be damaged or defective, just as an arm can be damaged or defective, and while it is society that stigmatizes, many elements of the biological brain are understood well enough to conclude that the possibility of disease isn't just a hallucination [ironic use of "hallucination]). This article ought to have some substance to it, and its lack of critical perspectives is a major failing. -Akio
I don't understand this focus on schizophrenia and it's causes. The field of psychiatry covers hundreds of disorders, including organic brain disorders caused by injury and birth defects. It's true that the DSM generally does not cover the causes of various disorders, It doesnt have to. The DSM is used to determine the best treatment options based on the facts as observed so far. We know that when a certain amount of criteria are present, it has historically been a sign that a certain disorder is responsible. Of course psychiatrists would love for mental illness to be something that could be "shown on an operating table", but it is a much more subtle science and can only be shown in more subtle ways (changes in PET scans, etc.). We can all argue about chemical inbalaces causing Schiz. or the over-prescription of Ritalin, but to make these arguments the basis of a belief that those who affiliates themselves with the field of psychiatry are somehow, by definition, incapable of adhering to the scientific method is pure nonsense. Beren76
It is not nonsense. There’s no evidence whatsoever that mental illnesses are biological. In a statement released in September 2003 the American Psychiatric Association, which represents 36,000 physician leaders in mental health, conceded that “brain science has not advanced to the point where scientists or clinicians can point to readily discernible pathologic lesions or genetic abnormalities that in and of themselves serve as reliable or predictive biomarkers of a given mental disorder or mental disorders as a group […]. Mental disorders will likely be proven to represent disorders of intracellular communication; or of disrupted neural circuitry” (quoted in the Wikipedia article Biopsychiatry controversy). —Cesar Tort 01:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CCHR

I saw the following in the article:

Together with the Church of Scientology, Szasz co-founded the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) in 1969 to fight what it sees as human rights crimes committed by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals.

Would it be more accurate to say that CCHR fights psychiatry and mental health profession, except as practiced by the Church of Scientology? According to CCHR materials, psychiatry and psychology are inherently bad - the problem is not abuses but the fields themselves. Further, any criticism of CoS's methods is notably absent.

So, how would this be for NPOV:

Together with the Church of Scientology, Szasz co-founded the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) in 1969 to fight psychiatry and other mental health professions, except for the Church of Scientology auditors.

Michael Voytinsky 22:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

No, because the Church of Scientology doesn't practice psychiatry either - its auditing sessions aren't psychiatric sessions where someone can potentially be institutionalized. Either way, one could say that Szasz doesn't have a problem with the field of psychiatry so much as he does with involuntary treatment.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.161.109.101 (talk • contribs).
With respect, CoS has a history of involuntarily confining people - see Lisa McPherson. Further, according to CoS teachings, some mentally ill people, such as homosexuals, should be locked up.
CCHR has a problem with psychiatry and psychology in general - its view is that the pratice of both is fundamentally harmful - and Szazs is one of its founders. Further CCHR's anti-psych position has remained unchanged since it was founded, so there is, at the very least, a considerable overlap between its views, and Dr. Szasz's. Michael Voytinsky 18:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

The following sentence heads the "Criticism" section:

Some people argue that Szasz's theories deserve refutation only because they are often cited by Scientologists and other anti-psychiatric groups.

Now, there is a citation at the end of the article, but the only point it actually supports is the fact that Szasz's theories are cited by Scientologists, which is such a well-known fact I don't think it really required citation. It does not support the portion of that statement which is far more eyebrow-raisingly questionable, which is "Some people argue that Szasz's theories deserve refutation only because..." I bolded the last words because this is rather an extraordinary claim; surely the issue is whether or not Szasz's claims are refuted, and how they are refuted, rather than an argument about whether they deserve to be refuted.

The only construction I can put on this which explains what it's doing in the "Criticism" section is if the intent of the sentence is something like "Some of Szasz's critics regard Szasz's ideas as so plainly absurd that they would not deserve the response of a refutation, if not that they are often cited by...." However, if that's what it's intended to mean, I feel it might be too POV. It's definitely too POV when it's accompanied by the vague "some people". If we can't find a reference to someone actually stating this about Szasz's theories in about, oh, a week or so, let's remove it. If someone finds an actual quote to this effect we can decide then what to do with it. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dotted with errors and misunderstanding of Szasz

This article well illustrates the problem some of us have with Wikipedia: it is terrible. Badly written, not demonstrably knowledgable of the subject, factually wrong in several respects, and with clear bias against the subject.

Although his association with Scientology is a small aspect of his work and career, it appears early in this article, and without mentioning that Szasz is an atheist who has never himself been a Scientologist. The early appearance in this article of Szasz's collaboration with Scientology serves his critics (and Scientology.) In a 500 page biography of Szasz, the Scientology association would rate about two paragraphs.

The criticism section says that Szasz's detractors claim that his view of mental illness is a "fringe position." If we are talking about a genuinely scientific endeavor, which psychiatry claims to be, then it is a farce for psychiatrists to characterize any view of psychiatric practice as "fringe." In science a theory is either proven or unproven. That psychiatrists derogate Szasz in this way ironically lends support to Szasz's claim that psychiatry is unscientific: scientific controversies are not decided by popularity contests. As with many other historical examples, only a couple of scientists once believed that gastric ulcers were caused by a bacterium, those "fringe" scientists were showered with the sort of opprobrium heaped on Szasz, yet their theory is now the accepted explanation for which they have now received the 2005 Nobel prize in Physiology or Medicine. (Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts. -- Richard Feynman, American physicist.) Isn't it in the very nature of establishments to consign dissidents to the fringe?

This again under Criticism:

"Some people argue that Szasz's theories deserve refutation only because they are often cited by Scientologists and other anti-psychiatric groups.[1] Szasz himself conducts a traditional psychoanalytic practice for individuals with problems of living; there is nothing in his writings to suggest that he has any experience with or ever treats patients with serious mental illness. Moreover, his critics maintain that serious mental illness is now regularly "approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion."

This might have been an appropriate place to mention that Szasz is not a Scientologist. It is not true that "Szasz himself conducts a traditional psychoanalytic practice..." He has been retired now for many years, except for writing and public speaking. And what is the source for the characterization of his prior psychoanalytic practice? Should it go unmentioned that there is not a single psychiatric diagnosis that can be confirmed with a biological test?

Under Szasz's main arguments:

"Szasz is associated with the anti-psychiatry movement of the 1960s and 1970s. He has attempted to distance himself from the connection, though, noting that he is not opposed to the practice of psychiatry if it is non-coercive."

Who associates him with anti-psychiatry and why is this unstated? He is an adamant critic of those who have associated themelves with the term "anti-psychiatry," such as Ronald Laing. Szasz has not "attempted to distance himself from the connection" with anti-psychiatry. He has always been forthright about his profound disagreements with the anti-psychiatrists. The characterization of his having "attempted to distance himself" is false, just as it would be to claim he has "attempted to distance himself" from Methodism by mentioning his atheism, or "attempted to distance himself" from sobriety by advocating the right to self-medicate.

Another quote in this section:

"Although Szasz opposes psychotropic medications, he favors the legalization of illegal drugs."

Szasz does not "oppose psychotropic medications." (He would say that the very idea of opposing a medication, rather than opposing its use and misuse, is irrational.) He opposes forcing people to use any drug involuntarily, including psychiatric drugs, aspirin, or penicillin. He believes that individuals have the right to voluntarily consume any drug, including "psychotropic medications."

I doubt that Szasz has ever written that involuntary hospitalization is a "crime againt humanity," and no source is offered to support this. He speaks of injustice done to individuals by psychiatric practices, including hospital imprisonment.

Szasz has written dozens of books and hundreds of articles, yet his voluminous output is ignored. The web site szasz.com. dedicated to his life and works, is replete with information, including discussion of matters such as his association with Scientology and his views on anti-psychiatry, but it seems that those who contributed to this entry prefer mostly to rely on second-hand information or their speculations.

As one of the prominent American intellectuals of the past 50 years, Szasz has an interesting history. For instance, his academic freedom was attacked and severely limited because of his dissident views. He provides some biographical information in the book "Szasz Under Fire," but none of that history is reflected in this Wikipedia entry. He came from a prominent Hungarian family and emigrated to the U.S. with the Nazi arrival looming. There is also a biographical chapter about him in Jim Powell's book, "The Triumph of Liberty."

The article makes no mention of prominent (not "fringe") intellectuals who have supported Szasz's criticisms of psychiatry, including Karl Popper ("Freedom - yes, psychiatry - no!") and Milton Friedman. You will not learn this because the article is not even-handed. (I would argue that Popper is at the very center of science, and he was favorably disposed to the core of Szasz's critique of psychiatry.)

Hi, there. I agree with you that Szasz's arguments are clearly misunderstood here. However, Szasz did say that involuntary treatment is a crime against humanity, a statement with which many psychiatric survivors and civil libertarians agree. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I don't doubt you, but I think it should be referenced if he said it. -- nicmart

Neither Popper nor Friedman have any credibility in the field of psychiatry. Popper was a second-rate philosopher with quack views on psychiatry. Friedman is an economist so it is not clear to me why anyone would look to him as an expert on mental illness. --24.55.228.56 14:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't take somebody within the field to understand the field. Journalist Robert Whitaker is a great example. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:21, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Whitaker is just another fringe antipsychiatry advocate who relies on Peter Breggin's quack research as the basis for his antipsychiatry nonsense. Like Szasz's 1960 theory, it is all old hat and inconsistent with modern science. I am not impressed.--24.55.228.56 15:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense. Whitaker is a distinuished Pulitzer-nominee. Whitaker took a serious look at Torrey's claims and found his methodology seriously flawed. It's not at all "old hat" and there is nothing scientific about modern psychiatry. How typical of you to smear even Whitaker. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, Breggin is not a quack. And Torrey certainly is a quack and also a fascist who has set back mental patients' rights even further. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 16:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Peter Breggin is arguably the biggest quack in America. Don't want to take my word for it? Checkout Quackwatch.org.--24.55.228.56 16:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I prefer to read a researcher's work and draw my own conclusions. You might want to try this approach yourself sometime. Breggin makes a lot more sense than mainstream psychiatry does. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

But, while we're on the subject, what does quackwatch.org have to say about Robert Whitaker? Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Since Whitaker has no medical credentials, he can only rely on quacks, he can't become one himself.--24.55.228.56 20:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, such a different view you have. See, for myself, I was impressed that a serious journalist such as Whitaker, who had no axe to grind (i.e. no vested interest in the outcome either way) looked at all the available evidence and came down firmly on the side of the "quacks." Somebody a little more open-minded than yourself might want to take a minute to think about that. But carry on with your insults and sneering, if you prefer. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I've put you in for a "request for comment" due to your obnoxious behaviour on wiki. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 03:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

That's a laugh and very hypocritical. Afterall, you are the one who has called people "facists" and "a##holes" on wiki. Plus, you are an admitted member of a extremist group and yet you continue to edit mental health articles after repeatedly being advised that you shouldn't do so. I suggest you review your own behavior.--24.55.228.56 03:57, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't do it to amuse you, 24.55. It's for the benefit of wikipedia. And I don't belong to any extremist organizations. The only people who have advised me not to edit are people such as yourself with an unwarranted fear of mental illness and consequent hatred of the mentally ill. Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 04:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

"Nonsense. Whitaker is a distinuished Pulitzer-nominee." That's one of the funniest things I've ever read. One nominates one's SELF for a Pulitzer. Submit a published article or photograph to the committee and you too become a Pulitzer nominee. Being a Pulitzer nominee isn't much of a credential, it just means he knows how to use a stamp to mail a letter with an entry fee. Scotto 20:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The arguments in Robert Whitaker’s book Mad in America have never been refuted by psychiatrists. Never. Any honest person who reads this exposé would easily see that biological psychiatry has no scientific basis. Furthermore, one does not need to read Whitaker or to have academic credentials to spot a pseudoscience. Occam’s razor and the unfalsifiable hypothesis are the surest “litmus paper” test to spot a false science. Biopsychiatry does not pass the test [5]. 15 March 2006. Cesar Tort

[edit] Scientology

Is he a member of the Church of Scientology? How did his relationship for the CCHR come about if he isn't? Can any of that be explained? gren グレン ? 13:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Szasz felt so isolated by the academic establishment that he tried to advance his cause through the CoS. But he has never been a scientologist —just like me. I do some anti-psychiatry activism in Mexico and, though I have some scientologists friends and even have spoken against psychiatry in their auditoriums, I have never taken any of their courses. Szasz and I are secular humanists. Just that simple. Cesar Tort 15 March 2006.
Request:
I would like to know more about Szasz's connection with the CoS.
Did he go to them or did they go to him.
I once read that stated he would work with ANY group that opposes psychriatic abuse.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.150.5.26 (talk • contribs).
He is not involved with the cult but rather CCHR - it's a scientology front froup to push Hubbard's anti-psych beliefs and they use Szasz theories as justification for their stance. Stating he is involved with the CoS is a big stretch. Cruise worships the guy from what I cansee- quoting him word for word quite often - Glen TC (Stollery) 00:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Szasz gets very well paid for the keynote addresses he delivers in CCHR auditoriums. —Cesar Tort 09:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Cesar Tort has not a clue how much Thomas Szasz is paid for his addresses. Tort wavers between expressions of admiration for Szasz and vituperative attacks on him. Tort's views are idiosyncratic and unreliable. Nicmart 16:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I do have a clue… —Cesar Tort 01:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe he gets paid for his keynote adresses or not, but it seems to be true to me that he has taken over the viewpoint of Scientology about people who are not successfull in earning money. I've read something about this opinion of Szasz in a foreign language, i.e. in German language, only. That's why I have to refer to my memory, no english source available. Austerlitz 88.72.3.133 09:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
One can only surmise why you try to recall what you think Szasz may have written, or someone else may have written about him, in German "about people who are not 'successfull' in earning money" (sic) when he has made his opinions crystal clear in his voluminous English writings. Perhaps an ant resembles a cow if you view it with a high-powered microscope. Nicmart 16:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Just read it by your own, its from his book "Cruel compassion" [6] It has been sold in english language, too. Austerlitz 88.72.8.126 18:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Szasz' views are very different to scientologists' views.

Scientologists believe in conspiracy theories, for example, that September 11 was caused by psychiatrists. They also believe that evil psychiatrists caused the universe’s mess trillions of years ago (see e.g., Space opera in Scientology doctrine). Nobody in the secular psychiatric survivor movement or in the critical literature by professionals (like Szasz's) holds such views.

Anyone who reads both the Antipsychiatry article and the Scientology and psychiatry article can see the big difference. The roots are also different. Classic antipsychiatrists like David Cooper and Ronald Laing had ties with the political left of the 1960s; Szasz, with the civil libertarians of the right. On the other hand, Scientology started as a mix of Aleister Crowley’s magic, Freud’s abreaction therapy and bad science-fiction.

Furthermore, scientologists are religiously committed to never take psychiatric drugs. Not even the most prolific critic of psychiatry, Szasz, holds such commitment. Szasz even published a book about the right of adults to take illegal drugs. Also, many secular critics of psychiatry may take, say, Valium to get some sleep. A pious scientologist would never do that on principle.

Another major difference is the total rejection of psychology by scientologists. No secular antipsychiatry activist reaches that extreme!

Szasz is only a nominal founder of CCHR. In real life Szasz has never had any power whatsoever in an organization ruled by faithful scientologists. In fact, many of Szasz’ views are heretical ―e.g., “our right to drugs”― and even evil for the church’s dogmas ―e.g., his agnosticism about post-mortem survival (reincarnation is a central dogma for scientologists, who really abhor materialism). But Szasz has not broken with the “secular” branch of the Church of Scientology, CCHR, and probably never will.

Strange bedfellows… Tito58, 18 December 2006


The "pointless" photo

Since Szasz co-founded CCHR, he is still on their Board of Advisors, he still attends their annual awards dinners, and possibly gets very well paid for it (claim by Cesar Tort above), how is a CCHR PR photo of him at one of those dinners arm-in-arm with one of CCHR's celebrity supporters "pointless"? AndroidCat 12:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Because it overfocuses on his membership to the CCHR and on the Scientology aspect, and thus lends a POV style to the article as one user here as well shown. If the reader wants more information on the CCHR, there is plenty available and linked from here to go. Lapaz 23:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
"Thus lends a POV style to the article..." For God's sake the whole article- save for one small paragraph on criticism and an accompanying counter to it--is predominantly pro-POV. For someone who's been so controversial, so criticized and who is, by a vast majority in the field today, relegated to the fringes of the there's very little criticism in the article.71.50.11.38 16:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. As a facet of his many years as an opponent of psychiatric falsehoods and the use of force, his CCHR association is trivial. The emphasis on CCHR (and no, I'm not a Scientologist) is like a history of Ford Motor Company from the viewpoint that the Mustang is the most important part of it. It is emphasized by those who think his association with CCHR brings him descredit. Nicmart 16:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
If we're reviving this discussion, I have no problem with the article mentioning that his "Founding Commissioner" position on the CCHR board of advisors is powerless. The question is how to cite it. The reference is there to show that he didn't just co-found the CCHR and then walk away with no further connection since 1969. AndroidCat 04:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Threaded discussion on Szasz and the CoS has been continued here.
Since I have a lot of work to do in the real world, I’m removing this page from my Watchlist. I hope, however, that someone else will address the POV issues in the current article. ―Cesar Tort 23:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Szasz himself about Scientology Thomas Szasz, here, in German language [7]

Austerlitz 88.72.14.248 13:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  • what he said about himself and Scientology (still in German):
"Ich bin kein Scientologe und war es nie. Scientology ist eine Religion, und ich bin ein überzeugter, bekennender Atheist. Ich habe die CCHR aus denselben Motiven mitgegründet, wie ich Jahre davor zusammen mit dem Soziologen Erving Goffman und dem Juraprofessor George Alexander die American Association for the Abolition of Involontary Mental Hospitalization (AAAIMH) ins Leben gerufen habe. Die CCHR ist auf mich zu gekommen, weil sie sich meinem Kampf gegen die Institution Psychiatrie anschließen wollte, nicht umgekehrt. Diese Unterstützung begrüße ich, denn: Der Feind meines Feindes ist mein Freund. Dies allerdings nur insoweit er meinen Feind bekämpft, nicht unbedingt in der Verfolgung anderer Ziele. Amerika und Großbritannien, Roosewelt und Churchill haben Seite an Seite mit der UDSSR und Stalin gekämpft. Deswegen sind weder die Briten noch wir Stalinisten geworden. Ich widme meine Arbeit seit über einem halben Jahrhundert der Bekämpfung psychiatrischer Sklaverei, das heißt der Abschaffung der staatlich sanktionierten Gefangennahme von Menschen unter medizinischer Schutzherrschaft – eine Praxis, die in den letzten Jahrzehnten zu einer staatlich sanktionierten zwangsweisen Verabreichung von Drogen an unschuldige Menschen ausgewachsen ist. Im Kampf gegen den therapeutischen Staat hätte ich die Unterstützung von Juden, Katholiken und Moslems sehr begrüßt, auch wenn ich deren religiöse Prinzipien und Praktiken genauso ablehne wie die von Scientology."

I hope that I or somebody else is going to translate this.

Austerlitz 88.72.14.102 02:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced claim of influence on Deleuze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus

I edited the sentence "Szasz's work has influenced thinkers as diverse as Karl Popper, Milton Friedman, Michel Foucault, and Anti-Oedipus authors Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari," removing the reference to Deleuze and Guattari. Anti-Œdipus was written in 1972, far before the francophone world (and much of the anglophone world) had heard of Szasz, though R. D. Laing certainly had considerable influence on Guattari. Furthermore, I cannot find any interviews or articles where either of the two even mention Szasz, although they do mention Laing quite frequently (and not always favorably, see for example Guattari, Felix. "Laing divisé." La Quinzaine littéraire 132 (1972)). Foucault, Deleuze, and Guattari are often lazily grouped with Szasz. If someone can find a primary source document which refutes my claim feel free to revert the sentence with citation. I left the mention to Foucault intact despite the fact that Foucault's main work on psychiatry occurred much earlier than Szasz's, since Foucault discussed Szasz in later interviews in the seventies and there is considerable overlap between their views. I will read through the relevant articles in Dits et écrits, a collection of essays and interviews of Foucault, to find out how he represented his work's relationship to Szasz's. Frankieist 04:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pov tag: CCHR membership over-focused

AndroidCat:

You haven’t responded fairly to what Lapaz wrote above about your copyedits:

Because it overfocuses on his membership to the CCHR and on the Scientology aspect, and thus lends a POV style to the article as one user here has well shown. If the reader wants more information on the CCHR, there is plenty available and linked from here to go.

He is right: the photo you inserted today already appears in another WP article. Nicmart replied to Lapaz above:

I agree. As a facet of his many years as an opponent of psychiatric falsehoods and the use of force, his CCHR association is trivial.

I wonder, AndroidCat, if you are not trying to use this as a straw man argument to diminish Szasz’s reputation among the intelligentsia? Nicmart is absolutely right: Szasz’s association with CCHR is trivial. By placing this stuff at the middle of the article you’re giving it a POV style. Therefore I am placing a tag. The photo should be removed.

Tito58 21:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

How many times do I have to respond before it's "fairly"?
  • I replaced the photo that Cesar Tort removed without discussion Mar 8th.
  • I shifted the very NPOV section out of Criticism, where it didn't belong, but I didn't put it back as the lead section.
I really have to wonder at the POV of people who want Szasz's co-founding and continuing association with CCHR to go away. The section that you have tagged sticks to the minimum simple cited facts, and it is your OR that it is trivial. AndroidCat 21:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CCHR membership?, try cofounder

Not only did he cofound the CCHR, but he publicly extolls the virtues it, produces content for it...in a word there has been a long and continuing relationship between the CCHR and Szasz. Is that overfocus?...and who really has POV issues here? --scuro 21:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

And on their board of advisors [8] (although probably an emeritus position). I believe that he was a keynote speaker at this years' annual dinner 2007-02-17, but I don't have a reference for that. AndroidCat 22:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
“Emeritus position” may be right. Just for the record, when I relocated the section two days ago I copied and pasted it first to my Word processor. The removal of the photo was an accident. —Cesar Tort 23:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, thanks for explaining that. I do agree that the section shouldn't be the lead section, but I didn't think it belonged under Criticism. BTW, the article briefly mentions the Thomas S. Szasz Award, but doesn't explain it. As of 2004, CCHR now awards it, "named after CCHR co-founder, Dr. Thomas Szasz, Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus at Upstate University, Syracuse, New York. The award is presented for outstanding achievement in exposing or eradicating human rights abuses in the field of mental health." [9], but I'll leave that for others to decide if it should be mentioned here. (Added: There seems to be some confusion about who awards it. [10]) AndroidCat 00:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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