Talk:Thomas Samuel Kuhn

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Contents 1 Some article and talk content moved 2 Normal science 3 family 4 Link 5 Hanson influence? 6 Problematic addition 7 Peer Review 7.1 Incommensurability 8 Kuhn and physical geography 9 "Paradigm Shift" 10 Foucault 11 Not so revolutionary

[edit] Some article and talk content moved

I shifted a lot of text - the bit that was just about the book - from this entry to The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. So I've shifted the Talk: text from here to Talk: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions too. - David Gerard 22:14, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Normal science

Currently this article links to normal science, but this in turn is a redirect right back to here. This should be fixed. Either an actual article on normal science should be started, or the link here should be removed and the term sufficiently explained in this article. -- Timwi 19:56, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Good call. I've replaced the redirect with a stub. If no one else gets around to writing the article in the next month or so, I'll dig out my copy of Kuhn and try to write something useful. -- Jmabel 23:43, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! :-) — Timwi 20:56, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] family

I imagine that the recently added material about family, added anonymously without citation, is probably true, but I'd be a lot more comfortable if it were verified by a registered user. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:05, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

I suggest deletion. That sort of thing belongs in an obituary, not an encyclopaedia article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paulromney (talk • contribs) 11:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Link

Recent change noted: The phrase "scientific revolutions", previously linked to "scientific revolution" (which was wrong: that's specifically the Copernican Revolution), is now linked to "paradigm shift", which also fails to discuss the term, but probably should. -- Jmabel | Talk 15:50, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hanson influence?

The article currently makes it sound like Norris Hanson was a huge and major influence on Kuhn's work. My skimming through the footnotes of Structure though doesn't turn him up once. In the preface, Kuhn explicitly lists only the following people as his intellectual influences for the book (his lists a few other people for helping him edit drafts, including Feyerabend, but I don't think that's likely the same thing meant here):

• Alexandre Koyré
• Emile Meyerson
• Hélène Metzger
• Anneliese Maier
• A.O. Lovejoy
• Jean Piaget
• B.L. Whorf
• W.V.O. Quine
• Ludwik Fleck
• Francis X. Sutton

So, I guess what I'm asking is -- are there grounds for highlighting Hanson above all these others? Is this an actor attribution or an analyst one? I think this should be made more clear if we're talking about his philosophical influences. --Fastfission 19:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I found a reference to Hanson on page 113 of the 3rd edn: "N.R. Hanson, in particular, has used gestalt demonstrations to elaborate some of the same consequences of scientific belief that concern me here." But that's all he says on that page.. --Fastfission 19:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The two most consistently mentioned influences, through The Essential Tension and The Road Since Structure, are Ludwik Fleck and Jean Piaget. --JTBurman 23:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic addition

This recent addition seems to me to be well-intentioned, but based on a poor reading of Kuhn. I read him mostly over 25 years ago, so I am not the best one to address this. I'm going to drop a note at Template:PhilosophyTasks. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

• I agree. It's a reading of Kuhn which speaks less about what he said than what about some people interpretted him to be saying. --Fastfission 05:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the passage:

"While compelling, Kuhn's theory has an inherent flaw, for if it is in fact taken as "true," it is merely a product of its paradigm and nothing more, therefore rendering it meaningless as anything more than "just" a theory (the problem of reflexivity). Also, taking the theory as true would imply that truth exists in the universe, an idea against which Kuhn argued."

is terrible and should be deleted. The main theory of one of the most influential philosophers of the last 50 years refuted in two sentences? I don't think so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.86.231.227 (talk • contribs) 27 Oct 2005.

OK, I've cut that, and also the rest of the addition. For the record, here is the rest of it. There may be something worth salvaging.

[Begin cut material]

Kuhn also stressed the importance of incommensurability among paradigms, meaning that science from one paradigm cannot have a greater or lesser truth-value than science from another. The act of science to Kuhn was no more than problem solving within a paradigm, and each successive paradigm led not to more verisimilitude ("truth-likeness"), but instead merely perpetuated the field of science. According to Kuhn, theories in in the next paradigm, whether it begins in five years or five-hundred years, will be no more truth-like than the theories we have now; they will, in fact, be incommensurable.

These ideas of a lack of an absolute truth to be gathered from the world via empirical observations spurred the thoughts of many postmodern deconstructionists, even though Kuhn himself never associated himself with that branch of philosophy.

[End cut material]

As I understand it, this is a mix of ideas actually found in Kuhn (incommensurability, epistemological rejection of a provable Truth), unfounded extrapolation (the implication that change of paradigm cannot represent progress), and a suggestive but insubstantial remark (yes, there is probably a partial temperamental relationship to the deconstructionalists, but less than to Wittgenstein in his Philosophical Investigations, R.G. Collingwood in his The Idea of History; if we want to go to Continental Philosophy for our comparison, Michel Foucault, especially in the era of The Order of Things, is probably closer to the point than the deconstructionists, although I think Foucault had a more pessimistic view of the possibility, or at least the likelihood, of progress.)

Again, this engages material that probably belongs in the article, but it belongs there better expressed and with appropriate citation, as views of scholars, not of the "narrator". As I said, it's 25 years since I read much of Kuhn, so I'm probably not the one to write it. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:45, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review

I have added this section as per the tasks note at PhilosophyTasks. --JTBurman 23:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incommensurability

In the autobiographical interview conducted in 1995, and published in The Road Since Structure (2000), Kuhn describes his "philosophical problematic" as focussing on incommensurability: that, in short, is why there are punctuations in paradigm change. Yet there is no mention of it here. Incommensurability is required before this article can be considered complete. --JTBurman 23:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. From a historical perspective, the philosophy laid out in SSR was considered quite radical because of the inter-related concepts of incommensurability and "world change". While the exact meaning of these terms as Kuhn uses them is subject to some debate, this article might better establish the relevance and importance of SSR by incorporating a brief description of these controversial concepts. I will perform an edit ASAP. BFD1 16:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kuhn and physical geography

How did Kuhn's ideas post 1970s relate to the quantitative revolution in physical geography? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.1.150.181 (talk • contribs) 21 Jan 2006.

[edit] "Paradigm Shift"

Could someone please point me to a passage in SSR where Kuhn uses the phrase "paradigm shift"? BFD1 13:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The closest I can find is "paradigm-induced gestalt shift" (p. 120, 3rd ed.). He frequently mentions perceptual shifts and paradigm changes, and gradually equates the latter with the former, but I couldn't find the actual phrase in a quick skim.--ragesoss 14:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much! This is a minor annoyance of mine; the phrase is frequently attributed to Kuhn but I have yet to see an actual instance of him using it. I suspect he never does -- the whole idea behind the resolution of a period of extraordinary science is that the new paradigm replaces the old (and often incommensurable) one. The idea that the old paradigm shifts over a bit to the right to become the new paradigm is contradicted by the incommensurability thesis. Paradigm change, yes. Gestalt switch, yes. Shift of perception, yes. But "paradigm shift" tends too much towards the connotation of cumulativity and linear progression that Kuhn sought to deny. BFD1 15:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

p150, 1996 3rd edition paperback - "...one group or the other must experience the conversion that we have been calling a paradigm shift". --ajn (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, snap. Thanks! BFD1 15:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

As you say, it does seem a bit of an odd phrase, implying something quite different from Kuhn's actual theory. In context, it's about scientists with different paradigms not being able to even communicate until one group has converted, because they live in different worlds (i.e. the "incommensurability of competing paradigms"). --ajn (talk) 15:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "paradigm shift" seems to describe what happens to the individual scientist (i.e., she experiences a paradigm shift) rather than what happens at a disciplinary level (e.g. Einsteinian paradigm replacing the Newtonian paradigm). Out of sensitivity to this distinction we might consider changing the article. The "periodic revolutions" which science goes through are not "paradigm shifts", as the article claims. Thoughts? BFD1 15:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not. I just read the article on Paradigm_shift. BFD1 16:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It does both depending on how people use it. Kuhn was not very exacting in his use of terms or his explanation of them, hence the famous "he uses a million definitions of 'paradigm' and none of them are consistent" claim. I think he would probably say that it happens first at an individual level with individual "converts" (I saw one way, now I see another) but after they gain traction the full "shift" on the community level is less dramatic (textbooks said one thing, now they say another). But that's just my speculation. In any case, whether or not such an activity is actually a description of change in science, or only a heuristic for thinking about scientific change, is still rather contentious... --Fastfission 20:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foucault

I removed the following paragraph from the "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" section of this article:

In France, Kuhn's conception of science has been related to Michel Foucault (with Kuhn's paradigm corresponding to Foucault's episteme) and Louis Althusser, although both are more concerned by the historical conditions of possibility of the scientific discourse. (Foucault, in fact, was most directly influenced by Bachelard, who had developed independently a view of the history of scientific change similar to Kuhn's.) Thus, they do not consider science as isolated from society as they argue that Kuhn does. In contrast to Kuhn, Althusser's conception of science is that it is cumulative, even though this cumulativity is discontinuous (see his concept of "epistemological break") whereas Kuhn considers various paradigms as incommensurable.

I did so because this article is about Kuhn, not SSR, and to include the above in what should be a brief sketch of Kuhn's life and accomplishments assigns undue significance. I think it belongs in the Structure of Scientific Revolutions article. BFD1 19:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not so revolutionary

Shouldn't the piece mention that Kuhn's idea of scientific revolutions is far from being accepted by many working scientists? (Including me!) There is at least as much evidence that science progresses by evolution, not revolution, except for "the" scientific revolution of the 17th century.

Charlie T 20 August 2006

• I think a section on published responses by scientists to The Structure of Scientific Revolutions would be a great addition to the book article. There have been a lot of people who have criticized Kuhn's views on the basis that you can't see the discrete changes he claims exist when you look at the historical record closely. --Fastfission 15:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)