Talk:Thiomersal controversy

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This is Ombudsman's, he wanted it in the anti-vaccinationist article. Midgley 01:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

"An example involves the debate over the the removal of mercury from thimerosal containing vaccines (TCVs). Recently, but largely in the United States, it has been suggested that thimerosal in childhood vaccines could contribute to autism or the autism epidemic. This debate has escalated due to recent research indicating the chance that some individuals are less able to excrete heavy metals normally, and reports that the type of organic mercury used may be more toxic than other types for which exposure limits have been set. Government agencies and pharmaceutical companies clearly have an interest in denying this, and there are potentially gains for litigants if a connection can be shown in court."

" TCVs are being phased out, although some TCVs (e.g., flu vaccines) are still routinely administered to children, as well as pregnant women and nursing mothers. Vaccines in use in the UK are largely free of it. There is no suggestion that it is required for the immunogenic effect of the preparations, therefore it is thought that TCVs will eventually discontinued entirely." " In 2004, an Institute of Medicine (IOM) panel favoured rejecting any causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. However, critics allege that the statistical evidence upon which the IOM based its conclusions has been difficult to independendently analyze, due in part the fact that access to the Vaccine Safety Datalink database has been restricted due to privacy concerns, and possibly because of the alleged secrecy surrounding the proceedings of the 2000 Simpsonwood CDC conference. " This is spreading out into yet another article that already exists and is reference from teh Thiomersal contro one. Midgley 01:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 not in use in USA? 2 "In recent years" 3 The opening section 4 New thirmerosal study 5 State of the Controversy section: poor 6 Legal aspect 7 Undue weight

[edit] not in use in USA?

CDC Director, Dr Julie Gerberding: ... looking for an association between thimerosal and autism in a prospective sense is just about impossible to do right now because we don't have those vaccines in use in this country. Midgley 06:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Go look on the FDA web site- u will find a list of vaccines that do indeed contain mercury, one is the tetnus injection. They are bing phased out.. i think another is the new bird flu vaccine.Cilstr 10:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "In recent years"

Surely someone can do better than that for line one? how about since {date}...

The article should perhaps bring out who said it first, do we not think? Midgley 12:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The opening section

Is not very good. Part of the problem is the buzz phrase "straight into the tissues". How do the the other participants in this stimulating discussion of a controversial artilc efeel about reducing that to a note that the suggestion is that Thimerosal produces mercury poisoning which produces autism etc? Midgley 23:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I noticed this evening that some citations in the very first paragraph were missing. I inserted these references, though admittedly they may not be the best. Better than nothnig certainly. Tony Stein 07:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New thirmerosal study

This month saw another publication (this time in the Medical Science Monitor) of another assessment finding (claiming) neurodevelopment disorders are coming down in line with the withdraw of thimerosal.(it's by the Geier's again) [http://www.usautism.org/PDF_files_newsletters /geiers_%20downward_trends_in_nds1.pdf] or [1]. Haven't really read it well enough yet to know whether its worth quoting from, so I will stick here in case any body else has the time. Gosh! June already; where does the time go?--Aspro 19:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] State of the Controversy section: poor

Its present state does not suggest a high quality process might have produced it. Midgley 14:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

(Biting my tongue, trying to avoid a sarcastic remark). It's fine, Midgley, and better than any three sentences in Anti-vaccinationist. It outlines the issue, has references, and - apart from a few sentences in the end - written in good prose. I know the facts in this matter bother you to no end, but I really can't help that. --Leifern 16:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Then we agree that the few sentences near the end need cleaning up. Midgley 16:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal aspect

Sorry I did not cite when I first made this contribution. The info comes from the July 2006 of the American Bar Association Journal (page 12). Article discusses the legal aspects of this preservative. Sorry for the initial lack of citation. Also, sorry I did not insert this comment in the normal place - Wikipedia is telling me that a spam filter is preventing me from posting this comment. SOmething about tiny.url.com ??? Anyway, FYI. Thanks! Bundas 13:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I came to the page by accident and I know the subject is controversial but... I edited the legal section to replace most of the uses of 'vaccine court' by USCFC. While the repetition of 'so called...' sounds like an NPOV speech, I'm not trying to correct POV here, just grammar. However, looking at 'often referred to as "vaccine court"'. Google only has 742 references to that phrase, several of them on this page. USCFC gets 14,000 references. For comparison, choosing another US legal nickname - 'Scalito' has 203,000 references. Should maybe just be 'sometimes' rather than 'often'? - Bazzargh 00:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not most obviously related to "the thiomersal controversy" though, but rather to one or more other articles. Better to name it here, and leave the interested reader, or readers, to look up the detail of where some legal cases are to be held and how that came about in a more particular article.

"In 1986, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act established a no-fault system for litigating claims against vaccine manufacturers. Under this law, all claims against Vaccine manufacturers could not be heard in state or federal court, but had to be heard rather in the U.S Court of Federal Claims. This court, often referred to as the “vaccine court,” hears cases without juries and awards damages that typically are far below damage awards rendered in other courts. The damage amounts are often insufficient to compensate severely injured children."

Could usefully shrink to no more than "Under the no-fault system established by the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act claims against Vaccine[sic] manufacturers have to be heard in the U.S Court of Federal Claims"

It appears that "occasionally called "the vaccine court" " might fit in, but is it necessary?Midgley 20:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Undue weight

The article is interesting in a way, but it gives undue weight to the views of the people believing in a link between autism and thiomersal (this is reflected in the reference section). Also, it fails to mentioned the number of large scale international studies that failed to show a link. The article needs a cleanup, to make it more clear that a thiomersal/autism link is very much the minority position in the medicial/scientific community, and that it's mostly held by people with no, or little, peer-reviewed work in the field. --Kristjan Wager 19:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not our job to count votes in this fabled "medical/scientific community" and then assign weight based on such a count. This is an article about the controversy - there's a separate article on thimerosal. Please add citations to the "large scale international studies" that fail to show the link. In the meantime, the evidence for a link is pretty overwhelming, but there are some pretty good reasons why it isn't showcased, i.e., a massive public failure of confidence in vaccinations specifically and other public health programs more generally. --Leifern 20:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There have been at least five large epidemiological studies conducted since 2001 (in the UK, US, Sweden and Denmark). All of these found no link. They are refered to in this 2004 IOM Report ( summarized here). As to the idea that we shouldn't count votes, I think it would be worthwhile for you to read the wikipedia policy of a neutral point of view. You should especially notice the part about not giving undue weight.

As I stated before, this article gives undue weight to the people who believes in a thiomersal-autism link, especially considered with the wight give to the mainstream researchers. I suggest we fix this somehow. --Kristjan Wager 21:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"... may have, over time, exceeded federal guidelines for bolus (single-dose) mercury exposure, based on methylmercury (but not ethylmercury) studies." That needs work, what is the relevance of the comparison between chronic and bolus? Midgley 21:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's restrain the invisible hand from guiding this debate, shall we? The whole point is, this is controversial. Let the mud slinging continue; that's how we'll make incremental progress towards the goal. Why anyone would accept anyone else's redaction of a controversial perspective I have no idea; this smacks of an attempt to neutralize the debate. Tony Stein 06:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)