User talk:ThePromenader/Archive 01

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Sorry the Promenader if I haven't replied earlier but I wasn't at home. Indeed, I've seen that there was some kind of argument between you and Hardouin about the way to describe things in the page of Paris. I've simply tried to make my best so that everyone could be happy... and that's why I was happy to see your first message since it was obviously successful. Unfortunately, your other messages proved me wrong but anyway, I'll maybe try again later. The thing is that I don't have a lot of time to try again now. I'll re-try later. Metropolitan 16 February 12:02 (CET)

I've just read your answer and I understand your concerns. The thing is that I believe Hardouin is right to insist on Paris being more a city of the size of 10 million people than of the size of 2 million people. It's important to understand the economical weight of that city in France (about 15/20% of the French population, and 25% of the French economy). France has unusual small municipalities. While in many countries urban areas are fully encompassed into a single municipality, urban areas are often divided in dozens of municipalities in France, even in smaller towns. In the case of Paris, the urban area is divided in about 420 different munipalities (Nearly as many as in the whole Belgium).

The French word "banlieue" is by the way not a perfect translation of "suburb". Indeed, there's the idea of "sub-urbanization" in the english word which doesn't exist in the French word. For instance, about 15 "suburban" municipalities nearby Paris are denser than the densest borough in London (Kensington & Chelsea). The Banlieues aren't necessarily synonymous of urban sprawl in France as it could be the case in other places.

Another problem we have in France is about the urban segregation. Many people consider that Paris is only Paris and not the banlieues for ideological reasons : Paris is beautiful and touristy when suburbs are poor and rioting. As such, many French people tend to exagerate the gap between Paris and its suburbs, when in reality only streets are separating Paris from its suburbs. The "city", what is made of residential or business buildings and not of housings, continues well over the administrative border of Paris. I personally live in a 7-story flat in Issy-les-Moulineaux... and a foreigner who would visit my place would bet that we're still in the city of Paris.

If I say so, it's simply because you shouldn't necessarily trust French people who would say that the suburbs have nothing to do with Paris. Clearly speaking, the 3 departments around Paris (The Hauts-de-Seine, the Val-de-Marne and the Seine-Saint-Denis) are as urban as would be the Queens or Brooklyn in New York City. La Défense, the CBD of Paris, is by the way located in the middle of the Hauts-de-Seine and not in the administrative borders of Paris.

Anyway, I've seen that Paris page is blocked. I'll maybe propose a quick presentation of the organization of Paris in the discussion page. I've seen people are talking about the "petite couronne" and the "grande couronne" without really explaining what it is. Maybe a map would be a good idea to picture the reality of Paris. I'll see what I can do and propose it in the discussion page. Metropolitan 16 february 2006 19:38 (CET)

According to the INSEE, "unité urbaine" (urban area) and "agglomération" are perfect synonymous. Hence I have problems to understand your post as I've talked strictly about the urban area. When it goes about the "aire urbaine" (metropolitan area), I believe the population figure deserves to be mentionned for its economical significance, just like it's the case for most other cities articles in Wikipedia. However, outside it's economical relevancy, I agree there's no really other reason to mention the metro area. About the urban area, you seem to agree that it's different as I've seen you agreed with a reference to La Défense, which is administratively speaking outside Paris "Intra-muros".

About Chennevières, that municipality is located at the outskirt of Paris urban area so it may not be the best place to understand what Paris urban area is about.

Here are two maps giving a very accurate face of Paris urban area. Unfortunately, we can't post them in Paris article for copyright reasons. The first one is a satellite picture of the central part of Paris urban area. I've stolen it from the Atlas Universel from Larousse so it cannot be posted in Wikipedia (I just show it as a reference). The second one is a map of built-up areas in Ile-de-France. It is the most accurate map I've found and it comes from the Prefecture of the Ile-de-France region (Environment department). Areas which were built before 1982 are pictured in grey. Areas which have been built between 1982 and 1999 are pictured in black. In green are pictured wooded areas and in yellow are pictured fields and wild areas. Obviously, the city of Paris is only the core of the urban area. This is well-pictured on this map. I cannot see any reason to ignore the rest of the urban area in an article about Paris. Metropolitan 16 february 2006 21:55 (CET)

Listen to me ThePromenader. I have no time to lose in stupid considerations such as arguing with someone taking me for someone else. Respectfuly. Metropolitan 18 february 2006 17:31 (CET)

Neither do I; this is why I decided not to play the game anymore. Yet if you wish to continue I can post the details anywhere you want me to. Okay? Thanks. THEPROMENADER 17:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The details of what exactly ? Now go for it ! You can do whatever you have in mind, you'll just prove yourself as a fool as I have nothing to do with that Hardouin guy. It's especially funny you believe I'm him knowing that obviously he doesn't like me (because I don't want to accept considering RER and Suburban rails as the same). To answer to the message you've posted to me, what the hell is that story about Paris pages ? Metropolitan 18 february 2006 17:31 (CET)

If only we could meet that would solve the issue but anyway, I guess you expect me to answer to your list so I'll do so :

• "The former "HalfMoonBay" IP checked out to a Noos server (relay 5 to be precise), the same as Hardouin's on a previous slip-up."

Well, since obviously you want to know everything about my life... my parents live in Neuilly-sur-Seine and indeed have a noos cable connection to Internet. When I visit them, I often connect to their computer. Furthermore, I use their online accounts to upload stuffs on the internet (They don't use them).

• "Although 'Metropolitan' connected through a free.fr dialup server, her homepage was on that same Noos relay server."

My connection here in Issy-les-Moulineaux is indeed an ADSL connection from Free (Freebox). About the homepage, I've explained it above.

• "Before you get offended at me 'checking you out' (even if there is nothing at all wrong with this), let me remind you that I have security tools that I use every day for the webservers I maintain - it took but a click."

There's no problem about this, I've expected you to do so. Obviously the fact that Hardouin was on Noos like my parents is a misfortune I haven't predicted, but it doesn't really change much as Noos is the only company on Paris offering cable connections.

• "Now, even without the technical details, what are the chances of two users:
• Having remarkably similar writing styles and choice of grammar"

Well, we're both French obviously, it's natural we could use similar grammar.

• "Being both female,"

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a male. I didn't even know Hardouin was a female. That actually surprizes me as I wouldn't expect a girl to be a fan of suburban rails, but I guess that was only a prejudice from myself.

• "Speaking in exactly in the same way on particular subjects
• Being in total agreement (and mutual support) on points of view known by few and shared by none (especially the AU "almost the same" argument)"

I fail to see about what you're talking about. If it's about the fact that Paris has expanded well over its administrative borders, not only this is far to be a marginal point of view, but it's also a factual truth. Only people who have never lived in Paris could doubt about this. About us being in total agreement, I'm sorry to disagree with you. It's been two months that Hardouin annoys me with his Transilien stuff he wanted to add to the RER pages and infobox I've created. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've seen untill now I believe Hardouin dislikes me at least as much as you do.

• "Using the same means of argument (avoiding pointed questions, purposely missing the point)"

I can't talk for Hardouin, but in my personal case I fail to see which questions I've avoided and which point I was supposedly missing. You've assaulted me all of a sudden when we didn't even know each others. That's the only thing which is sure.

• "Editing in the same page the very same phrases in two different places as the other does, using the same vocabulary and phrasing, and editing nothing else"

Well, sorry ThePromenader but obviously there was a disagreement between you and Hardouin. I've thought, and it's probably my main mistake, that I could arbitrate your dispute in selecting the elements which I considered as fair from both sides. Of course I've copied sentences originally posted by Hardouin, but it wasn't that hard... just click on the History thumbnail and you'll see what was written and what has been changed.

• "Answering questions asked to another but in exactly the same way as the person asked would and has in the past."

If you talk about the metro area thing, I couldn't imagine that Hardouin had already answered you on this. If he answered in the same way, maybe that only means that on that specific case our answer was reasonable. I'm really honnest on this, I really try to have a reasonable point of view in my edits on Wikipedia. Anyway, next time you're around Paris, I would be pleased to meet you if this could really make you understand that you were wrong. I have no connection whatsoever with Hardouin. You've been totally misleaded in believing so. If you wouldn't be so serious all this would really be funny actually... it's the first time I'm taken for someone else. Hope this helped you. Metropolitan 18 february 22:24 (CET)

Just so you know, Metropolitan, there was some disagreement a few weeks ago between myself, Promenader and Hardouin so this isn't just a two-sided argument. During the discussion, a new user emerged called Halfmoonbay who appeared to support Hardouin but didn't seem to have even minor differences. Of course people can have exactly the same viewpoint but it just raised suspicions, which in an anonymous atmosphere is bound to happen. If you scan the Talk:Paris page, you will see a summary of the differences in tabular form, which still remain unanswered and to be honest I would eat my own hat if anybody could disprove my assertions.

I understand the desire to include references to the urban areas around Paris commune but I stand by my point that encyclopedia editors should not be deciding how to define cities, towns and metropolises. We should abide by the definitions used by the relevant authorities, which in the case of Paris and it's surroundings would be the French government, the Ile-de-France regional government, the city/departmental government of Paris and INSEE. It is true that some of the population of Paris has moved out of the commune but that does not mean we should regard Paris as simply being equivalent to the relationship of Manhattan borough to New York City. Paris is a city defined by the French government as being encompassed within 105 km². I know this will raise more differences, but as I have pointed out before, the Ile-de-France regional government regards the Ile-de-France as the metropolitan area around Paris and that is what we should use. For statistical purposes, INSEE defines an aire urbaine but this does not match the Ile-de-France precisely. In this case, the aire urbaine should be used in the context intended by INSEE but not used to fit the Ile-de-France, even if the difference is a few hundred people. If tomorrow, the French government decrees that the aire urbaine and the Ile-de-France are precisely the same, then we can use them as being exact equivalents.

On the issue of the infobox, I am still amazed that some editors think that a template is appropriate for use on one page only. If the infobox used on the Paris page is not used on any other pages, then it is a waste of Wikipedia resources. Look at any other group of similar pages and they will share templates, so let's get some movement on a common template for French communes/cities or urban areas and if that is not possible then we must delete the unique templates used on each page and incorporate the information onto the pages directly. Green Giant 22:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The Promenader, I must confessed you that you're an absolute freak. Spending so much time in research for something like this is really pathetic. Marla_Singer isn't me, it's the knickname used by my girl friend on her Civfanatics forum. However, it worthed being noticed that I have indeed use her ID to also write in that forum few posts. If I haven't created my proper ID, it's for the simple reason that you can be banned if you appear with double login, and as we lived together I could have embarrassed my girlfriend in doing so. Some of the messages you've posted had been indeed written by myself, most others haven't. It's actually amazing that you were looking for things written in 2003 and 2004. With all my respect, I must confess that I'm really sorry for you.

The funny thing in all this is actually that you're talking about that Civfanatics forum, and not about another forum I post personally in, as Metropolitan, which is Skyscrapercity. Over there, you would have found clearer evidence of my "naughty" opinions about Paris. Indeed, I would like a Greater Paris to be created. However, I'm far to be the only one in that case. Just type "Grand Paris" and "Skyscrapercity" on google and you'll find tons of thread about people all asking for a Greater Paris to be created.

If you want really to know more about this, several politicians also believe a Greater Paris should be created : Jean-Luc Romero and Claude Goasguen, who are both right-wing candidates to the next municipal elections in Paris, or Manuel Valls (the left-wing mayor of Evry). Since the 60's, the debate about the Greater Paris emerges here and there, and since the recent riots in France, that debate is gaining again in intensity. All this to say that this is not a marginal point of view.

Now, I wonder how all this is relevant to talk about my edits on Wikipedia. And I have even more trouble to understand how this has any link with your original accusation that I was Hardouin. Metropolitan 15:17 19 february 2006 (CET)

It didn't take much research at all - just one search did the trick. You post as your girlfriend in the same voice on the same subjects - to the same game forum as the same person? This with the Free/noos IP 'parent's place' story? And as of this morning, you and Hardouin being 'in agreement' to simply 'skip' the Paris agglomeration in favour of the 'metropolitan area'? Excuse me - all this is too much to swallow. THEPROMENADER 14:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Mister the Policeman, those messages you're talking about are dating from two to three years ago, when I was indeed living with my grilfriend right above the appartment of my parents in Neuilly-sur-Seine. At that time we were using my parents Noos cable connection, but since I live here in Issy-les-Moulineaux we've switched to Free ADSL connection. However, I still use the Noos internet space to upload stuff on the Internet. How this is wrong to you ? And how this tell anything about Hardouin ? I don't even know where Hardouin lives !

Now what else do you want to know about me ? In which primary school I've studied ? In which High School I've been to ? The nationality of my grand parents ? How is this such a problem to you ?

You are a total freak and your obsession serves absolutely no other purpose than making of yourself a fool. I couldn't imagine you would reach that level ! Have you done the same IP check with Hardouin ? Have you realized any connection between Hardouin and Marla Singer ? Do you sincerly believe that since two years ago Hardouin would have posted in Neuilly-sur-Seine, and since August 2005 in Issy-les-Moulineaux, only to create a double login so that he could trick you when he didn't even know you !!!! I'm sorry to tell you so but there's one thing on which Hardouin is certainly right, it's that you are freaking paranoid. I can understand that you've been suspicious towards Hardouin since, as Green Giant told me, he obviously created a double login but don't you believe that all this is getting a bit too far ?

And by the way, where have you imagined one second that I would like to skip Paris agglomeration to the concept of Metropolitan area ? I've never told this once ! This is another thing which is totally part of your imagination. I don't know ! Move outside, get back on reality, what else can I tell you ?? This was funny at the beginning but now it's getting totally insulting. Now, stop to make your fool and excuse yourself. Metropolitan 16:39 19 february 2006 (CET)

There was never any question of any timeline on the forum postings - what was written and by who, yes. I already mentioned the verified Hardouin IP. I'm not 'imagining scenarios'; I'm simply commenting on what I see before me. This is getting pretty "Twilight Zone", isn't it? THEPROMENADER 15:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

ThePromenador, you're an idiot. Those Hardouin has the same IP as I do ? No. In your long investigation, have you found any evidence of IP being mixed between Hardouin and me or Marla Singer ? No. If I have the answer to those questions, it's for the simple reason that I AM NOT HIM !!!!

I still wish to meet you in real, but once I'll do so and you'll realize the jerk you've been, I won't hesitate to punch you in the face. Metropolitan 17:08 19 february 2006 (CET)

Wow. My ten second investigation then ten minute cut and paste you mean. I mean really - just look at all the coincidences - what could you think in my place, especially in light of the past 'puppetry for consensus'? I told you that all will become clear through the editing - and this I'm beginning to see. THEPROMENADER 16:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC)