Template talk:Thermodynamics timeline context

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[edit] Image revert

Scm, I see that you have casually reverted the image of thermodynamic engine for that of a candle in the Template:Thermodynamics timeline context box? I don't exactly know what your motive is? A candle has nothing to do with thermodynamics. I have many history of thermodynamic books. Moreover, I've never seen you edit any thermodynamics-related articles. Please explain yourself? --Sadi Carnot 07:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Candle = fire = heat = thermodynamics... I'm not sure how much more obvious that can be. But that aside, a moving image in a box such as that only serves to distract from the content of the article. Also, I am a mechanical engineer with a particular interest in thermal fluids. It really isn't wise to assume that because I don't edit thermodynamics articles that I am ignorant of the subject. If I work with thermal fluids all day, what reason do I have to come home and do the same in my free time? — Scm83x ^{hook 'em} 07:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Let’s regroup for a minute. The image we want is such that it represents this article: Timeline of thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, and random processes. Thus far our choices are:

Steam engine	Carnot heat engine	Candle	Engine	Gas phase

Now, as far is I can tell, in this particular article, or in the history of thermodynamics article, to which the template directly refers, there are no “candle experiments”. The candle did not play a significant role in the development of either thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, or random processes, except maybe for maybe as a reading light while the famous scientists conducted their experiments in the wee hours. I am certainly a flexible person when it comes to images, being that creativity abounds, but a candle is not a good representative of thermodynamics, heat, heat transfer, thermal fluids, etc. Please suggest an alternative if you object to the distracting-aspect of the engine. I will try to think of alternatives as well ... for example, I could scan and upload an old steam engine diagram? --Sadi Carnot 08:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I simply added the candle because a candle is a fire. I personally couldn't find any images that worked, because they are all in too much detail to be truly well displayed on such a small scale. I'm honestly confused as to why you don't see the logic in using something simple, like a candle, as the icon for this box. Combustion being an essential thermodynamic process and a single candle flame being the most simple representation of combustion I see a certain elegance about it. Especially considering the fact that those not well versed in thermodynamics certainly understand a candle, while most probably don't understand a triple expansion engine. In any case, the box is overall quite useless. It should be replaced in most cases with some sort of {{main|x}} link or removed entirely. It only appears in a handful of random articles anyways. — Scm83x ^{hook 'em} 08:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I just modified and uploaded the original Carnot heat engine. I agree the template is rather useless; however, after seeing that "candle" on a number of articles lately, it has begun to bug me. When I think thermodynamics, I don't think candle, or visa-versa. When I see a candle, I think old-fashion night-light, reading light, prayer or religious symbol, some kind of Wicca thing, etc. I see your reasoning, i.e. flame = heat; but I take a certain amount of pride in the thermodynamics articles in Wikipedia and I don't think the candle is representative of either heat or thermodynamics. I apologize for my abruptness; however, I am just being frank. --Sadi Carnot 08:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More suggestions

I'm commenting here at Sadi Carnot's request. It may be that I have more abstract sensibilities, but when I think of thermodynamics I think of equations and plots. I would use either Boltzmann's entropy formula, the partition function, or a plot of the Carnot cycle as an iconic representation of thermodynamics. Itub 10:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Image:Add			Image:Add	Image:Add
Add	Indicator diagram	Boltzmann's equation	Add	Add

I'm a math guy, so I think of plots and equations too, but I think an "icon" is appropriate here. A candle flame is not a good thermodynamic icon, a steam engine is, but an icon should be simple. More thermodynamic icons:

• A piston in a cylinder
• A thermometer
• PV diagram of a Carnot cycle (mentioned above)

I also like the Boltzmann S=k ln(W) but thats probably too mathematical and not iconic enough. PAR 16:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree the candle is a little off... I'm fond of the gas particles, but a PV Carnot diagram may be appealing as well. --Falcorian ^(talk) 16:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I just cropped and uploaded the Boltzmann's equation pic as well as started that article. I think that carved pic of his equation is a good representation of the bunch: thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, statistical thermodynamics, random processes, etc. I also added the indicator diagram per PAR's suggestion. It seems we are making progress. The stone-carved equation, though, is very "iconic". --Sadi Carnot 16:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

To understand the significance of {{{1}}} in the context of the development of thermodynamics, see timeline Edit

Three votes, including myself, for the stone-carved Boltzmann's equation (as above). I will put this in. If we find a better suggestion, we can always change it later. Thanks for everyone's comments: --Sadi Carnot 17:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a rather poor quality image. You should use or something like it for clarity. — Scm83x ^{hook 'em} 18:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, well I heard about this famous carved tombstone equation in at least six different books before I ever actually saw the photo, which was very interesting to say the least. Maybe a user who lives in Vienna can take a close-up shot of the equation? --Sadi Carnot 18:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)