Talk:Theotokos

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Contents 1 What is this? 2 IN NEED OF TRANSLATION 3 Reductions by Csernica 4 Merge mother of god

[edit] What is this?

The word "Theotokos" is not found in the Greek scriptures. God is spirit, always was and always will be and never had a mother. Christ is called "the Son of God" not "God", even Jesus confirms it twice in the Bible. God The Father and Creator has always dwelled in heaven. The spirit He gives those whom He chooses to be called His "sons" is given to them by God Himself, which is "of His spirit".

(Rom 8:16) The SPIRIT ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Having God's spirit in us does not make us gods nor Christ. Jesus is called in the Bible, "the Son of the living God" When you add to God's words you get a different gospel.

God did not come on earth in corrupt flesh and never will, for He is spirit. God did manifest Himself through Jesus flesh just as God manifests in all who are Born Again with His spirit in them. Jesus was "a man approved by God", and "THE WORD" that Jesus spoke was God's words and not Christ's. Jesus always spoke what God gave him to speak.

(Act 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN APPROVED BY GOD among you by miracles and wonders and signs, WHICH GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

(Jhn 17:8) For I have given unto them THE WORDS WHICH THOU GAVEST ME; and they have received them, and have KNOWN SURELLY that I CAME OUT FROM THEE, and THEY HAVE BELIEVED that THOU DID SEND ME.

(Jhn 14:24) JESUS SAID: He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and THE WORD which ye hear IS NOT MINE, but THE FATHER'S which sent me.

First of all, I'm confused as to what this anti-Christian propaganda is doing on the discussion page, although I'm glad you didn't edit the actual page in any visibly biased fashion.

Secondly, read the beginning of that ol' Gospel of John you seem to love so much:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."

Who or what can this "Word" be other than Jesus of Nazareth? Is it the Bible? In the beginning, before it existed, was the Bible with God? Is the Bible God? Also, this passage stresses Jesus' divinity most clearly when it says that all things were made through the Word.

Tix 23:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

John 1:14 spells out exactly who the Word is when it says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." The word "theotokos" may not appear in the Greek scriptures, but it is a Greek word which was used by Greek speaking Christians, which is all the article claims. Of course this argument perfectly reflects the argument at the Council of Ephesus, namely whether or not Jesus is God. Naturally, anyone who does not believe Jesus is God would be expected to object to the use of the term. That notwithstanding, it's a fact of history that the early councils did affirm that Jesus is God. You're free to disagree with their conclusion, but not with the fact that that was their conclusion.

In that vein, I removed the recent vandalism to the page that apparently reflected our anonymous commenter's opinion. Wesley 00:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm tired of looking at this vandalism above the content box, so I've moved it down. Majoreditor 02:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IN NEED OF TRANSLATION

MATIA added the following, which I do not have sufficient Greek to translate. JHCC (talk) 14:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Ο Ωριγένης το 230 μ.Χ. χρησιμοποίησε πρώτος το όνομα της Παρθένου Θεοτόκος. ερμηνεύοντας το κβ':23 του Δευτερονομίου, «την ήδη μεμνηστευμένην γυναίκα καλεί ούτω και επί του Ιωσήφ και της Θεοτόκου ελέχθη». Ο Ωριγένης, που κατακρίθηκε για άλλες κακοδοξίες του, δεν κατακρίθηκε γιά το όνομα Θεοτόκος, πράγμα που θα συνέβαινε, αν αυτό ήταν κάποια καινούρια προσφώνηση και οχί παλαιά.

Ο Διονύσιος ο Αλεξανδρείας το 250 μ.Χ. σε επιστολή του προς τον Παύλο τον Σαμοσατέα λέγει: «τον σαρκωθέντα εκ της Αγίας Παρθένου και Θεοτόκου Μαρίας». Ο Γρηγόριος ο Νεοκαισαρείας ο θαυματουργός το 275 (λόγος εις τον Ευαγγελισμόν) λέει: «ταύτης ουν της προφητείας την ωδήν η Αγία Θεοτόκος ανέπεμπε λέγουσα, Μεγαλύνει ή ψυχή μου τον Κύριον κτλ».

Ο Ιερός Μεθόδιος επίσκοπος Πατάρων και εκκλησιαστικός συγγραφέας (το 300-311) λέει: «Και δη λαβομένη η Θεοτόκος τον εκ του αχράντου και παναμώμου αυτής θυσιαστηρίου σαρκωθέντα ζωοποιόν και ανέκφραστον άνθρακα, ως λαβίδι...» Και αλλού: «επί τούτοις παρρησιασάμενος ο δίκαιος, και τη προτροπή είξας της διακονησαμένης Θεώ προς ανθρώπους θεομήτορος...» Και αλλού πάλι «τι προς σε φθέγξομαι, ω μήτερ παρθένε, και παρθένε μήτερ; Πατρικοίς σε ύμνοις προσφθέγξομαι, θύγατερ Δαυίδ και μήτερ του Κυρίου και Θεού Δαυίδ... ω πασών γενεών υψηλοτέρα και πάντων ορατών τε και αοράτων δημιουργημάτων τιμιωτέρα φανείσα, διά σου γέγονε Κύριος ο Θεός των δυνάμεων μεθ' ημών. Εύγε εύγε εύγε Μήτερ Θεού, και δούλη».

Ο Αλεξανδρείας Αλέξανδρος το 320, σε επιστολή προς τον Κωνσταντινουπόλεως Αλέξανδρον τον επί της Α' οικουμενικής αγίας Συνόδου, και ο Άμμων Επίσκοπος Ανδριανουπόλεως, ονόμαζαν την Παρθένο Θεοτόκο. Και ο Παμφίλου Ευσέβιος το 320 (εν βίω Κωνσταντίνου κεφ. μγ'.) λέει: «Διό δη βασιλίς η θεοσεβεστάτη (Ελένη), της Θεοτόκου την κύησιν (ήτοι την Βηθλεέμ), μνήμασι θαυμαστοίς κατεκόσμοι». Επίσης ο ίδιος ονομάζει την Παρθένο Μητέρα Θεού, λέγων «ανάγκη γαρ τον δημιουργόν των έργων αυτού κήδεσθαι, επεί δε κοσμικώ σώματι πλησιάζειν εν τε τη γη χρονίζειν έμελλε, της χρείας τούτο απαιτούσης, νέαν τινά γέννησιν εαυτού εμηχανήσατο, χωρίς γαρ τοι γάμων σύλληψις, και Αγνής παρθενίας ειλείθυια, και Θεού μήτηρ, κόρη κτλ.» (βλ. αυτόθι σ. 162).

Ο Μέγας Αθανάσιος το 330 λέει «και αυτός δε ο Άγγελος δρώμενος ομολογεί απεστάλθαι παρά του δεσπότου, ως επί Ζαχαρίου ο Γαβριήλ, και επί της Θεοτόκου Μαρίας ο αυτός ωμολόγησε». Και πάλι «σκοπός τοίνυν ούτος και χαρακτήρ της αγίας Γραφής, ως πολλάκις είπομεν, διπλήν είναι την περί του Σωτήρας επαγγελίαν εν αυτή ότι τε αεί Θεός ων και υιός εστί, λόγος ων και απαύγασμα και σοφία του Πατρός, και ότι ύστερον δι' ημάς σάρκα λαβών εκ παρθένου της Θεοτόκου Μαρίας άνθρωπος γέγονε». Και πάλι «όθεν και γενομένης της σαρκός εκ της Θεοτόκου Μαρίας, αυτός λέγεται γεγεννήσθαι ο τοις άλλοις γέννησιν εις το είναι παρέχων και ο Ιωάννης γενομένης φωνής παρά της Θεοτόκου Μαρίας εσκίρτησεν εν αγαλλιάσει». Και πάλι «πόσον αν τις είποι το καύχημα της Αγίας παρθένου, και θεοειδούς Μαρίας». Και αλλού, «Διό και παρθενομήτωρ ως Θεοτόκος η Αγία Μαρία.» (Αθανασ. λογ. γ. κατά Άρειον: τόμ. α' σελ. 563-579-583, τόμ. β' σελ. 824-875-1271 τόμ. γ' σελ. 1351 κ. εξ.).

Ο Γρηγόριος ο θεολόγος το 370, (επιστ. προς Κληδ. τόμ. α' σελ. 738) κατά Απολλιναρίου, λέει: «Ει τις ου Θεοτόκον την Μαρίαν υπολαμβάνει χωρίς εστί της Θεότητος.» Και πάλι ο ίδιος (λόγος α' περί Υιού, προς Έλληνας) «Που γαρ εν τοις σοις έγνως Θεοτόκον παρθένον;» και στον λόγο λε' «Θεοτόκον παρθένον» ονομάζει την Παναγίαν.

Ο Ιωάννης ο Χρυσόστομος το 400 (λόγ. εις την Αγίαν παρθένον τόμ. ε' σελ. 876 Εκδ. Ετόν.) λέει: «Ουδέν τοίνυν εν βίω οίον η Θεοτόκος Μαρία, περίελθε, ω άνθρωπε, πάσαν την κτίσιν τω λογισμώ, και βλέπε ει εστίν ίσον ή μείζον της Αγίας Θεοτόκου παρθένου, περινόστησον την γην, περίβλεψον την θάλασσαν, πολυπραγμόνησον τον αέρα, τους ουρανούς τη διανοία ερεύνησον, τας αοράτους πάσας δυνάμεις ενθυμήθητι, και βλέπε ει εστίν άλλο τοιούτον θαύμα εν τη κτίσει». Και πάλι ο ίδιος «Και νυν ου λείπει τω Θεώ Δεβώρα, ου λείπει τω Θεώ Ισραήλ, έχομεν γαρ και ημείς την Αγίαν Παρθένον Θεοτόκον Μαρίαν πρεσβεύουσαν υπέρ ημών, ει γαρ η τυχούσα γυνή ενίκησε, πόσω μάλλον η του Χριστού μήτηρ καταισχύνει τους εχθρούς της αληθείας;» (Λόγ. περί του χρησίμως τας προφητείας ασαφείς είναι). Και πάλι ο ίδιος: «Εάν ουν είπωσιν ότι των ουρανίων εστίν ο Μελχισεδέκ, ή άλλου τινός χωρίου, ακουσάτωσαν ότι και αυτός γόνυ κάμπτει τω Χριστώ τω σαρκωθέντι εκ της Θεοτόκου Μαρίας, λέγει γαρ ο Απόστολος κτλ.» (Ίωάν. Χρυσοστ. εις Μελχισεδέκ τόμ. στ' 296). Και πάλι «ο Θεός ουν ου μόνον έβλεπε την των Ιουδαίων ακμάζουσα ευσέβειαν, αλλά και την μετά ταύτα των πιστών ευσέβειαν προήδει ότι έμελλε προϊέναι εκ της Ιουδαίας η Αγία Θεοτόκος παρθένος, προεώρα τον χορόν των Αποστόλων, προέβλεπε τα τάγματα των ομολογητών, τας μυριάδας των Ιουδαίων των μελλόντων πιστεύειν κτλ.» (εις την δ'. ήμερ. της Κοσμοποιΐας τόμ. στ'. σελ. 475).

Ο Πρόκλος Πατριάρχης Κωνσταντινουπόλεως, μαθητής του Ιωάννου του Χρυσοστόμου, και Πατέρας της Εκκλησίας λέει: «Συνεκάλεσαν ημάς νυν ενταύθα η Αγία Θεοτόκος και παρθένος Μαρία το αμόλυντον της παρθενίας κειμήλιον, ο λογικός του δευτέρου Αδάμ παράδεισος, το εργαστήριον της ενώσεως των φύσεων, η πανήγυρις του σωτηρίου συναλλάγματος, η παστάς εν η ο λόγος ενυμφεύσατο την σάρκα, η έμψυχος της φύσεως βάτος, η παρθένος και ουρανός, η μόνη Θεού προς ανθρώπους γέφυρα, ο φρικτός της οικονομίας ιστός, εν ω αρρήτως υφάνθη ο της ενώσεως χιτών...», (εγκωμ. εις την Θεοτόκον κτλ 6).

Ο Ιερός Αυγουστίνος το 400 (λόγ. περί φύσ. και χάριτ. κεφ. λστ') λέει: «Πλην μόνης της Θεοτόκου πάντες οι λοιποί ήμαρτον , κατά το, εάν ειπωμεν ότι αμαρτίαν ουκ έχομεν, ψευδόμεθα, μόνη γαρ η Θεοτόκος πλείονα έλαβε χάριν». Ο δε Ιερός Θεοδώρητος το 436 μαρτυρεί στεντορείως ότι είναι αποστολική παράδοση και διδασκαλία να ονομάζουμε την Μαριάμ Θεοτόκον, λέγει γαρ: «των πάλαι και πρόπαλαι της ορθοδόξου πίστεως κηρύκων κατά την Αποστολικήν παράδοσιν Θεοτόκον διδαξάντων ονομάζει και πιστεύει την του Κυρίου μητέρα» (Βλέπ. Θεοδ. επιστ. Σπορακίω τόμ. δ'. σελ. 639).

Gregory of Nyssa,

"Mother of God Virgin", Mother of God is similar to the title theopator (θεοπάτωρ, sometimes translated as royal in english) which was assigned to David

Ο Γρηγόριος ο Νύσσης εις την γέννησιν του Κυρίου (Τόμ. III σελ. 460) λέγει περί της μητρός του Κυρίου η «Θεομήτωρ Παρθένος», το δε θεομήτωρ ερρήθη κατά το θεοπάτωρ, όπερ ειναι επίθετον αποδιδόμενον τω προφήτη Δαυίδ παρά των υμνογράφων και των Αρχαίων πατέρων της Εκκλησίας ένεκεν της εξ αυτού κατά σάρκα καταγωγής του Κυρίου ημών Ιησού Χριστού.

The above excerpts are from the Study for the Mother of the Lord the All-Holly Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary (Μελέτη περί της Μητρός του Κυρίου της Υπεραγίας Θεοτόκου και Αειπαρθένου Μαρίας) by Saint Nectarios (Άγιος Νεκτάριος).

---

And I don't have the sufficient english :) I 've added some of them in english but I could use some help. +MATIA ☎ 14:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I've translated the phrase "Τελικά και ο Νεστόριος πείστηκε στη χρήση του όρου Θεοτόκος, προβάλλοντας την θέση της φαινομενικής μετάδοσης των ιδιωμάτων." into "By the end of his life, Nestorius had agreed to the title Theotokos, stating the apparent communication of the attributes (idiomata)." (now that I see it I'm not sure if it was "by the end of his life" or "finally"). +MATIA ☎ 15:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't really know enough Greek for this sort of translation. Regarding Nestorius, I remember our priest reading us a prayer attributed to his later days in which he repents and acknowledges Mary as Theotokos. Wesley 12:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The Virgin Mary is from Northeast Africa, Ethiopia. Jesus was an African priest. Christianity is a European concept that has adopted African scrolls and writings. Information should be translated from the orgins of the people. 69.148.247.46 14:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)Ragland

Funny, if you ask the Ethiopians they have a completely different opinion. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reductions by Csernica

Csernica has removed the English translations from the introduction. I have reinstated them. The reason for putting in the heading what the word "Theotokos" means in English is becasue this is an English encyclopedia. Using Greek alone is not enough to introduce the topic of this article. It is quite ok for something mentioned in the introduction to be discussed in further detial in subsequent paragraphs. That is exactly what a good introduction does. Also Csernica may not be aware of 'Theotokos' being translated 'Mother of God Incarnate' but that does does not mean it is never translated this way. It is. There are more people engageing in theoloigcal conversations in English than Csernica is aware of. If someone thinks it is a pecular or contentious translation they are free to look for quotes or ask others for a quoted example. Just stripping information about things you do not know from articles is not a good editorial habbit.--Just nigel 08:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Then add a citation. It's a very bad translation, frankly, and not at all common. (One often comes across the phrase, not as a translation of "Theotokos" but as an additional epithet.) Also, it seems absurd to insert information in the intro that's given again just a few lines down; it makes for very tiresome reading. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Citation added as requested. I am in a cantacerous mood tonight, so in response to your "It's a very bad translation, frankly, and not at all common." I can't help myself but say you will have to take it up with the officials of the Catholic Church and Anglican communion who use it. This is an encyclopaedia for acurately describing what is beleived and spoken about 'Theotokos' not for editing to keep out things you consider bad. -- Have a good night, and ask me to be more gracious tomorrow. I'll try harder then. --Just nigel 09:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The citation does not support the claim. "Mother of God incarnate" is not here being used to translate "Theotokos" -- if it is, then it's ambiguous -- but is a separate title. If you read the article, you'll find that "Mother of God" (not exclusive of further qualifications like "incarnate") has its own tradition of usage even in Greek. See, for example, any Greek Orthodox icon of the Theotokos. The inscription abbreviates «Μήτηρ Θεού», "Mother of God". See also the hymn "Axion estin" which uses both epithets. There does exist a Latin equivalent to "Theotokos" which eludes me for the moment, but it just happens that their tradition favors "Mother of God" in prayers and hymns. Show me where it's clearly being used as you claim -- preferably in an English translation of a hymn where "Theotokos" is used in the original -- and I'll believe you.

But really, the trouble with putting this in the intro is that there are significant translation issues with this word, and to just give various translations without explaining the issues is misleading. That's why the Translations section immediately follows the intro. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right this Greek word is often translated "Mother of God". I agree and wrote this into the introduction. You are also right that there are significant translation issues with the word. I agree and that too is indicated in the introduction - both through the variety of translations listed and an explicit indication that "Mother of God" while an accurate transliteration has the potential to be misleading. The deatils of these translation issues and the context in which "Mother of God" can be understood or misunderstood are then spelt out in the body of the article. It is correct Wikipedia style for the introduction to include information spelt out in greater detail in the body of the article.

You assert the quote I cited does not support the statement 'Theotokos is translated "Mother of God incarnate"'. In good faith I can offer another similar, earlier, example from the Anglican and Catholic chruch "We agree in recognising the grace and unique vocation of Mary, Mother of God Incarnate (Theotókos)" 1981. I do wonder if your assertion is infulenced by your inclination to not accept it as a valid translation. There is no ambiguity here in my mind.

You also reveal your own preferance for an English translation of a Greek hymn. This again suggests your bias. I once again point out that "there are more people engageing in theoloigcal conversations in English than Csernica is aware of." such debate or veneration may even include styles or expression that you find unaceptable - so what? It doesn't stop it needing a place in an encyclopeadia that is trying to accurately describe how 'Theotokos' is used.

Also, Csernica, when you say things like "if you read the article" i feel you are trying to patronise me. This is troubling me. I suggests we focus on what is true not on what you do or don't like or do or don't know. --Just nigel 03:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I never said "Mother of God" was a translation of "Theotokos", and I very much do not agree with you that it is. I said "Mother of God" has its own tradition of usage independent of "Theotokos" and that's one reason why it's not a good choice for translation, quite apart from the problems raised by its failure to preserve the sense of the original. I suggested that you read the part of the article where it explained this for no other reason than to save myself some typing. The implication in your preferred intro, that "Mother of God Incarnate" is preferable to "Mother of God" is a POV claim you may not make so baldly. It translates "Theotokos" no better than the other, for the same reasons.

On the other hand, your continued insistence that I disagree with you out of simple ignorance is more than patronizing; it's downright insulting. Please assume good faith and believe me when I say I disagree out of some actual knowledge, as I have also said elsewhere in exchanges with you.

Neither phrase is in any way a "transliteration" of "Theotokos" as you claim above.

I'm afraid your new citation is no better. It reads to me as if one is intended as a gloss of the other, not a translation. Perhaps it's you who is being affected by your bias.

It is entirely reasonable, when saying that a word from one language translates a word in another, to ask for an example of a text where the one word occurs in the original and the other in the translation, when that translation is carried out by a reliable person. "Theotokos" is a Greek word. I would therefore expect to see "Mother of God Incarnate" used in its place in a translation of a Greek text, if a valid translation it be. That's not a theological issue at all. It need not be a hymn, which I mentioned simply because Greek-language hymns containing "Theotokos" are plentiful and many are translated. Any text will do. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge mother of god

I was wondering if anyone could comment at Talk:Mother of God on merging that article (which was only recently created, and doesn't contain much original content) here and to Mary, mother of Jesus. Any comments would be appreciated-Andrew c 02:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

comments merged from Talk:Mother of God -- Pastordavid 04:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is redundent with content found at Mary, mother of Jesus and Theotokos and Blessed Virgin Mary. I am of the theory that wikipedia should have detailed, and reliable broad articles, instead of a dozen small articles that could have been combined. This artice drags out three basic concepts and turns them into a few paragraphs. There is a lot of redundancy (I tried to reduce some). Also, there isn't a single source. I don't see what this article adds that a user couldn't find at any of the other 3 stated articles. Any existing content should be merged, andt his page restored as a redirect.-Andrew c 13:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess I am confused as to what unique information necessitated a seperate article for the Greek theological term - theotokos - and the English translation of it. At a glance I would say Merge Away. If there is a compelling reason not to, speak up please, because I just don't see it. -- Pastordavid 06:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

By now it has already happened, but just so you know, I too agree with the merge.--Just nigel 02:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. I figured 2 weeks (well a little less) was enough time for comment. Because this is wikipedia, all edits can easily be undone, so I felt bold enough going on with the merger after waiting a good while. -Andrew c 02:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)