Talk:Theodore Kaczynski

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 Theodore Kaczynski was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 2007-03-15
This article is part of WikiProject Criminal Biography, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide on true crime and criminology-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
Top This article is on a subject of top-importance for Crime-related articles.
WikiProject Criminal Biography To-do:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Portal:Biography
 Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ]
(If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Former FA This article is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

Contents

[edit] Relation to Polish statesmen?

Is he related in any way to the twins with the same family name who rule Poland? --Vladko 05:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

"I'm afraid not". Barry Kent 21:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unorganized comments

The paragraph in Early Life and Mathematical Career beginning "Kaczynski is mentioned in a long-ignored personality profile of Adolf Hitler..." doesn't make sense to me. I'm confused by the phrasing of the paragraph - is TK mentioned in the profile of Hitler, or in the work of the man who wrote the profile. Is the quote by Dr. Murray or about Dr Murray. Should be clarified or dropped, as it's not sourced anyway.--Rapscallion 03:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

  • No response from that Jan 5 note, so I have removed the paragraph in question. I've 'saved' it below in case the original author (or someone) wants to clarify. -- Rapscallion 03:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"At Harvard, Kaczynski participated in a several-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry A. Murray, an expert on stress interviews. Murray, who worked for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) during World War II and mentions Kaczynski in a long-ignored personality profile of Adolf Hitler, was himself a controversial figure. Having returned to Harvard after the war, he organized psychological experiments in 1959–1962. A centerpiece of the study was a stress test similar to one the OSS had used to assess recruits."

Someone anonymous replaced that paragraph without editing. It STILL doesn't make sense, but I'm not going to get into a revert war. Hopefully it'll get edited by someone with sources. -- Rapscallion 00:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to the Technological Singularity, since the concept does not seem to appear in the "Unabomber manifesto" - certainly, Kaczynski has never referred to the concept in the terms used by transhumanists.

I feel the Zodiackiller connection needs to be placed a hell of a lot furter down in the depths of the article, as it is pure speculation and not fact.

I am going to edit accordingly.

Yeah, perhaps even use an username accordingly, too...smartarse...heheh.--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Should the "Kaczynski can be reached at":-section really be in this article? It feels a bit too personal to be in a wikipedia article.--Marxmax 22:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, although I did find it quite amusing.--PoptartKing 21:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Killing three and wounding 29. He was the target of...."

"Pleaded guilty in 1998 to letter bomb attacks that killed 3 people and wounded 28 others,"

Which one is it, 29 or 28?

Perhaps both. What if someone was half-wounded...or, uh...recovering at the date of writing? Who knows!? We'll just say 28.5 for safety sake.--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone seen the Unsolved Mysteries: Bizarre Murders DVD? This is where the Zodiac/Unabomber parallel is mentioned. Someone should investigate this so as to provide an interesting theory towards Kaczynski on the wikipedia entry. It's not conclusive, but it's something to note. I added some information in the article's headline only as a means to spark interest among the topic.

Nope, but perhaps you could tell me where it's possible to get it. You got a contact in the black market or sumethin', perhaps you can'eh....HOOK ME UP? ;)--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

That he got a Polish name, it does not make him Polish-American. Where is the evidence he got anything to do with Poland or Polish culture (Except some family roots in the distant past)? All I could find Polish about his was that his father was in "kelbasa"-business.

So...that doesn't count, eh? Well, thanks for takin' a leak at his "heritage", but hey, it's too late for piss and vinegar now. Those people's had their REVENGE...--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Are his family roots Polish-Catholic? Did he dye his hair? Or is he part Celtic because he has red-hair?-Informationguy

You ask alot of question's, stranger. Z'hat is not quite healthy. Perhaps, thee should be more cautious...or, atleast, more quiet about it. To answer yer questions, I suggest you consult his brother...or my more dubious and expensive inner-coat information. Care to purchase?

Sneak-peak:

1. There's no such thing as "Polish-Catholic". Poland is a country, Catholism is a religion. Whoever describes their nationality as "POLISH-CATHOLIC"!? Poland is also protestantic country, goddarnit! They are irrelevant to each-other.

2. Specifify the colour, and I might answer. Perhaps in his youth, he did?

3. Yeah...everyone knows that being a Celtic is all about having red hair, so as soon as someone has red hair, you assume they're (possibly trying) to be Celtic? Whatever even had said celt's have anything to do with the color red? It's all a coincidence! If they've "chosen" it, it must be because it's a demoralizing color in battle, or just symbolizing allegience. Plus, Celt's have little in common with both Catholics and the Polish, whatever he is or did it for, he ain't both! Plus, religious people seldom do dye their hair.

Hope this can "clarify".--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


An event in this article is a April 3 selected anniversary (May be in HTML comment).

Nice entry. Kudos to all who worked on it.

A few years ago, ContinuUM News, a newletter of the UM math department, ran a brief synopsis of mathematical findings attributed to Dr. Kaczynski. Perhaps someone still has a copy and can add the gist of the piece to the article in a reasonably nonderivative way.

Someone left this question in the article, Re K's brother:"

[So how come he's named here?]

The answer is, of course, that his identity became public, he's written about the incident, and there was discussion of what to do with the reward money. (I don't remember the details, so can't add them to the article.)--Vicki Rosenzweig 23:12, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I added a comment about that to the article.--Securiger 01:27, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Just came across this psychological profile of the Unabomber, produced by the FBI in October 1995. The profiler in question apparently had a lot of other successes, but this one is quite marginal:

FBI prediction Correct?
Drives an older car in good condition. No - Did not have a car at all.
May have a wife or girlfriend. No, never had a relationship with a woman, was hostile to women whom he considered "manipulative", but considered sex change surgery.
Likes to discuss the bombings -- How stupid the FBI is, how smart the bomber is. In letters only. Not face to face.
Probably visited the scene of his early bombings, talked to police, asked questions, maybe even offered advice. Don't know.
He may have taken a plane trip this summer. No.
Will kill again, despite promising not to. Did not, although as he was arrested only 6 months later and averaged 9 months between bombs, he may not have had time. A completed bomb was found in his cabin.
White male. Yes.
Now living or working around San Francisco. Nope, Montana.
In his late 30's or 40's. Nope, 53 at the time.
Meticulous. Yes.
Underachieving. Depends how you reckon it; He attained a professorship by the age of 25, but then deliberately and consciously "dropped out" of mainstream life.
Intelligent. Yes.
Relatively anti-social. More like extremely anti-social; He was a hermit.
Probably keeps a scrapbook or diary of his deeds. Yes, a detailed diary, and also notebooks of bomb designs and test results.

I wonder if it's worth mentioning how far off-base the FBI were?--Securiger 20:58, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Good article.--Koyaanis Qatsi 02:05, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. While it may not be as exhaustive as some others, this article really satisfied my curiosities regarding TK very well. Just seemed to clearly hit all the right points.--✈ James C. 01:01, 2004 Aug 20 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

The following seems to have a slight POV problem to me: "...Though it's scope is extremely broad, as Kaczynski also devoted large sections to railing at 'leftists' and 'oversocialized types'."

"Railing at" someone has a pretty negative connotation; IMO, this should be reworded. However, the rest of the article seems to be NPOV.

If, having read the manifesto, you can think of a more appropriate word than "railing"... please feel free to reword.--←Hob 03:31, 2004 Sep 20 (UTC)

In addition, the segment "The stigma of its author's criminal acts has limited its popularity as a source in discussions of technology..." seems to be somewhat unjustified; I see very little to justify this; it seems to be unencylopedic and possibly biased.

This is one of the rare cases where Wiki's, generally positive, efforts to be neutral make me a bit queasy. Still on rereading it it wasn't quite as "positive" on him as I thought. That his ideas are taken as seriously by some as they apparently are disturbs me a bit, but if that's the reality it's the reality. Reading a bit of his deal from Wikisource it's not quite as crazy sounding as I thought, but then again some of the jihadist types are also quite erudite and logical in their way.--T. Anthony 15:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Agree, but I can't think of a better phrasing at present. Be bold!--←Hob 03:31, 2004 Sep 20 (UTC)

To me, the phrase "railing against leftists" by itself gives the immediate impression that Ted was a right-wing nut. While true to an extent, I think it would be prudent to mention Ted's criticism of conservatives, such as paragraph 50 in his manifesto: "The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values."

Well? The entry was totally just a derivation from the original manifesto. Mentioning it doesn't mean any POW at ALL, because it's taken from what he said, a QUOTE, and doesn't reflect any opinion of the editor at all. Using a quote in itself is generally neutral, and anyone saying anything else is spouting utter nonsense! It is NOT POW.--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Math

"...A pure mathematical problem about functions and circles that Duren said had no apparent practical application."

Does this really need to be mentioned? Isn't this very common in graduate math research? The sentence implies that pure math is something rare, when it really isn't, especially at the doctorate level of education.--✈ James C. 04:44, 2004 Oct 17 (UTC)

[edit] Respected bombmaker

I removed Ted Kaczynski is highly respected by Muslims, especially Palestinians for his bomb making abilities. by an anonymous user because I felt that this information added nothing of informational value to the entry and is pure opinion if is in fact true.--oo64eva (AJ) 01:39, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Better picture?

Is there a better picture of this man available? The current one is too small. Also, most post-arrest photographs are very undignified.--Iusenospace 03:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I found a picture and placed it in the article. Its credited to AP but should be allowable under fair use, hopefully.--Nayra

That's at least a better photo. Thanks for taking the time to do this. --John Lunney 07:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Professional Influences

In an article reproduced here, mathematician Stephen Smale comments that Kaczynski was likely influenced by mathematician Alexandre Grothendiek, who visited Berkeley and gave a lecture on the "perils of modern technology" around the same time Kaczynski was there. It would be interesting if someone could find more specifics on the circumstances noted in this particular anecdote.

First it's Grothendieck not Grothendiek and he has some strange ideas of his own: [1]
One story has it that Grothendieck is now convinced that the Devil is working to falsify the speed of light. Schneps ascribes his concerns with the speed of light to his anxiety about the methodological compromises physicists make. He talks constantly, however, about the Devil, semi-metaphorically, sitting behind good people and nudging them in the direction of compromise, of the fudge, of the move towards corruption. ‘Uncompromising’ is the expression Schneps favours. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.196.207.203 (talk) 00:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Type of Chemical Explosive?

In the interest of being accurate rather than morbid, and with legitimate concern of what kinds of explosives can be manufactured commonly (What to beware of), has any report revealed precisely what kind of explosive he used which fit into the size constraints of his packages? Or which could survive the handling of mail couriers?

[edit] Atlantic Monthly article on Harvard experiments

The Atlantic Monthly had an interesting article describing some bizarre psychological experiments that undergraduates such as Kaczynski took part in, and left some with psychological scarring, that might explain some of his later sociopathic behavior. Would be nice to have some discussion of this background in the article.

FYI Alson Chase wrote the Atlantic article , the books in the bibliography by him are also about it. --GangofOne 06:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Profile

"FBI Agent John Douglas, the father of "profiling" criminals, disagreed with this. He claimed the bombs were much too sophisticated and that the bomber was most likely an academic. Profiling was a new investigative tool at the time and Douglas's theory was largely ignored. After Kaczynski's arrest, the FBI came under much criticism. It was pointed out that if they had only checked into the disgruntled academic theory, they could have easily caught this man many years earlier

This needs footnote. Where and when did Douglas say this? I think this is hindsight. Also, profiling is new, and has not been verified scientifically, despite their claims. This paragraph believes tv too much. Also, do they keep a list of "Disgruntled acadmeics"? Probably pretty long.--GangofOne 21:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

He didn't say the FBI kept a list of "disgruntled academics, but one of their agent might have. Anyways, he was proved to be right and deserves all the praise he can get. But that he could've been caught earlier thanks to the "theory", is all very suspect. It's not sure if that would've helped for or against, it's a possible scenario lost to time. Plus, there's probably tons of "disgruntled academics" as Gang of One pointed out indirectly, why would've it helped to narrow down the search in any way? Too many suspects to deal with, still. And hard evidence is still required...Just findin' a disgruntled academic and arrestin' him would've lead to public outrage.--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


"He claimed the bombs were much too sophisticated and that the bomber was most likely an academic." Is this an accurate reflection of what Douglas said? Wouldn't an airline mechanic, having extensive practical experience with mechanical engineering, probably be able to construct a more "sophisticated" (and functional) bomb than a math professor? A mechanic sure wouldn't use wooden plugs on a pipe bomb, but my quibble is with the word "sophisticated," not the conclusion. --El Mariachi 18:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crimethink

"During the height of the mainstream media campaign against Kaczynski in the spring of 1995, a "commando team" associated with the CrimethInc. ..."

Documentation? Is a copy of the text available? DId the insert actually get printed?--GangofOne 06:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the paragraph is accurate. I could be wrong, but I thought the piece ("The Unabomber: A Hero For Our Times") was published elsewhere; either Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed or Green Anarchy. Anyway, if the Washington Post did end up publishing that it shouldn't be difficult to find a ref.--Bk0 (Talk) 13:40, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Browse the site fer yourself, for link's and article's, if you wish. I'd wager to think that'd help ye in yer search, aye, young pirate.--OleMurder 12:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Crimethinc didn't exist in 1995.

[edit] Opening

Terrorism is a word we are strongly advised to avoid using in the case of people, and there is no reason to have it here. What he is is a convicted murderer. It is wrong to say that he was attempting to fight (What he percieved as) the evils of technology as it legitimises what he did if you buy in to his technology doom theory, and one does not equal the other. While he did have some clear insights into the technological dilemmas we face this should not be connnected per se to his murdering people, which at the end of the day he did because he wanted to kill people, may have been schizophrenic, etc. Lets not give any creedence to his idea that our technology dilemma means you have to go out and kill people. Wikipedia must not indulge in such terrorist encouragement POV.--SqueakBox 17:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Was he not trying to kill people involved with techo-industrial projects specifically because they were involved with techno-industrial projects?

Possibly. He killed them because he was pissed off/mad and justified his crimes as they're working with techno-industrial projects. He undopubtedly opposed techno-industrial projects but we cannot say with certainty that that was his real motivation.--SqueakBox 14:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

It was still terrorism; To a lesser degree. For an ideology, just as much as Al Quaida's, only by one individual. Y'see; It -were- bomb's, not guns or swords or knives he killed with. It assualted entire areas, such as a computer-shop. Definately small-scale terrorism, in my humble opinion, but perhaps it shouldn't be mentioned first that he's a terrorist in-way's. Just 'rat he's convicted murderer, and later the "terrorism"-issue of him as a sabotageer, when the article later dwelve into the topic.--OleMurder 12:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Certainly he was a terrorist. To give you an idea, read this blog entry. Terror was his goal and the Wikipedia would be wrong not to say that. --71.136.79.237 15:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IQ

I've altered the statement on his IQ. The fact that he had an IQ of 170 at age 10 is meaningless; IQ is weighted by age. His IQ should therefore always register around 170 so I've altered it so it states his IQ was found to be 170 at the age of 10.--Davril2020 20:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anarchism section

Please source There is no indication that he ever had any contact or involvement with an anarchist movement prior to his arrest, making his adoption of the term seem uninformed. This For a contemporary discussion of these issues from an Anarchist's perspective, refer to "You Can't Blow up a Social Relationship: The Anarchist Case Against Terrorism"[2] is totally unencyclopedic, what has it got to do with Kaczynski? We are interested in Kaczynski not in Anarchism, and esp not an article about anarchism from offsite inserted as something we should read in the article. looks suspiciously like spamming, SqueakBox 15:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Please source It is arguable that Kaczynksi has been embraced more readily by the anticapitalist and anticosmopolitan far-right, particularly adherents of ecofascism and Third Positionism. His attacks on leftism, "the modern world" and politically correct so-called anti-racism as a "system value" are reminiscent of the traditionalist philosophies of Julius Evola, who is often considered the most important ideological force behind these groups though there is no evidence that Kaczynksi believed in rascism. as it looks to me like original research.

I finally removed the rest of the section Although Kaczynski called himself "Anarchist", some Anarchists disagree as to whether his manifesto truly represents an anarchist critique of technology. Some anarchists agree that his tactics (similar to the theory known as "Propaganda of the deed" which was adopted in the late 19th century by Russian Nihilists and a small minority of German and Italian Anarchists) were unacceptable terrorist acts and with no chamce of creating meaningful change.

Some believe his writings to be naive and reductionist. Some such as John Zerzan find the manifesto insightful and worthy of consideration. Many, however, feel the detrimental aspects of being associated with the Unabomber outweigh any value that might be found within his writing..

I have now removed the whole paragraph as original research and someone's POV. It is not encyclopedic and someone's original speculation about Kaczynski's relationship to anarchism is not appropriate. We know he had a connection with John Zerzan but that is mentioned elsewhere and should not be mentioned in the context of speculation on Kaczynski's alleged anarchism, SqueakBox 15:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, per this rationale I will remove all references to him as an anarchist (other than his own verifiable use of the term, eg, the "anarchist" group "FC"). On a side note, I find your mispellings and bizarre formatting somewhat off-putting. --Bk0 (Talk) 16:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

You what? Spelling mistakes? I haven't made any, one typo, what are you whingeing about? I agree about the further removal of anarchist except for self-reference but have replace terrorist wioth hermit in accordance with wikipedia policy about not over-using words like terrorism, SqueakBox 17:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

But of course feel free to correct my bad American as I am not very good at American: being English we weren't taught it at school, SqueakBox 17:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S., the alleged "anarchist group" of his, "FC", didn't really EXIST...in mere definition of a GROUP...If so, he was their ONLY MEMBER...leader, and follower, at the same time.--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manifesto

I am familiar with the manifesto. Nowhere does he state he thinks industriasl society can be beaten nor that it is likely to crash. Nor does he anywhere state that a crash would make people happier and simpler, nor does he praise these qualities. he says people would have a much greater sense of power process if society were to crash but he doesn't make any other promises about how it will be. He certainly doesn't think people might be happy in such a circumstance though he does talk about fulfilling the power process indirectly but we would need a fuller description of the power process for that level opf detail to go it and it was just misleading in terms of what he really said. I got the feeling I was reading the opinions of a wikipedia editor not those of Kaczynski. I think the critique could be a lot better but at least it is not now inaccurate, SqueakBox 17:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Books and pop culture

The article states

"In a letter dated October 7, 2005 Kaczynski offered to donate two rare books to the Melville J. Herskovits Library of African Studies at Northwestern University's Evanston Campus which was the location of the first two attacks. The recipient, David Easterbrook, turned the letter over to the university's archives."

I'd be very interested to know what the books mentioned were.

This isn't relevant to the article as it's currently constituted, but I'd also like to say the techno group Underground Resistance named a track on their album "Interstellar Fugitives" "Unabomber" and the album cover was inspired by the crime sketch of him. Perhaps we could have a "Pop Cultural references" section (maybe including a link to the skate clothing label mentioned in the dismbiguation page of "unabomber"?)

Hmm, highly dubious to add such a section, but okay...al'tho it's a bit "morbid", I suppose it's true to fact some people draw referral to it...but those who do, are hardly "popular culture". Perhaps reword it to "underground culture"?--OleMurder 21:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A "leftist"?

Do you perceive him as a leftist? He is put into Category:Left-wing American terrorists, which is not only arbitrary, but also ironic, since a good chunk of his manifesto is a sweeping diatribe against the left wing. GregorB 22:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

His critique on leftism shows he is clearly no left-winger and I have therefore removed the category. Please read or re-read The Industrial Manifesto before considering reapplying it. His Psychology of Modern Leftism is a fundamental part of the Industrial Future and its whole argument is against the lefty politicaly correct approach that he fears will be the modern technologically controlled world, SqueakBox 23:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life in prison

Why do we have his contant info here? Melchoir 11:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I came here to post the same thing. Since it's been addressed/no one answered, I'm going to remove it. sinblox (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
It's part of his life, that's why it is here! It's not supposed to be deleted. --Maxl 01:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Truth versus Lies

I've removed the line on his "memoir" Truth versus Lies. There's no trace of this work in Amazon.com or the Library of Congress. Unless someone can provided documented evidence that this book exists, the sentence should not be reincorporated to the article. Sir Paul 07:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Truth Versus Lies Theodore John Kaczynski ISBN 1893956008 Pub. Date: 11/1/1999 Publisher(s): Context Books http://www.ecampus.com/book/1893956008
NATIONAL DESK | November 5, 1999 National News Briefs; Unabomber's Book "Theodore Kaczynski's book, Truth Versus Lies, is pulled from printer after last-minute haggling between Kaczynski and his publisher, Context Books, over legal concerns about its contents" http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/theodore_j_kaczynski/index.html
By DOREEN CARVAJAL "Context Books is struggling with how to promote forthcoming memoir Truth Versus Lies by Theodore J Kaczynski, jailed for life in Unabom case; says book does not dwell on bombings because his case is before appeals court" August 26, 1999
By JAMES BARRON WITH DAVID M. HERSZENHORN "Public Lives column notes that ...; also notes that Theodore J Kaczynski, Unabomber currently in Federal prison in Colorado, has written short story called Ship of Fools that will appear in Off!, magazine published by students at State University of New York at Binghamton;"
"Theodore Kaczynski's book, Truth Versus Lies, was pulled from the printer on Wednesday after last-minute haggling between Mr. Kaczynski and his publisher, Context Books, over legal concerns about its contents. Days earlier, Mr. Kaczynski had tried to void the book deal, Beau Friedlander, publisher of Context Books, said yesterday. Inside NYTimes.com
"Context Books - 12/8/2003 - Publishers Weekly Financial problems continue to mount for Context Books, a small New York City indie house that has been in Chapter 11 bankruptcy since November of 2002." http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA340451 I note http://www.contextbooks.com is there, but no content.
not available at http://bookfinder.com . It exists, he wrote it. It doesn't exist, it's not available. GangofOne 09:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also contents

I presume the links are all appropriate, but comments on them are far too extensive. They probably should become a stub entitled something like Techno-crisis social criticism (tho that is just a brainstorming-stage working title, not a proposal i have any preference for). The Unabomber article should have at most short phrase beyond the links in its See also section.
--Jerzy•t 04:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed and modified somewhat, SqueakBox 04:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High School life

Ted went to my High School, Evergreen Park Community High School. I feel this should be elaborated upon, and if I can help anyone with documents, I would love to. Mitch 20:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Authorities said it had enough firepower to obliterate the plane."

I find this unlikely; it takes an awful lot of power to obliterate a plane. I don't know what the supporting source for this comment was, so I'm not game to touch it, but can someone please verify this is the appropriate term? Irrevenant 21:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] typewriter and bicycle

He used a bicycle and a typewriter, which are forms of technology. Perhaps someone could add this to the article. Family Guy Guy 02:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

...So are the pipe bombs, and he is not exactly proposing an economy dependent on that, is he? I mean, how much more of an honest luddite can you get when one is talking about the Unabomber? He lived in the middle of the forest. Being dependent on products of the technological system is not alien to his argument, but part of it. So what if he did use forms of technology to fight back?Maziotis 17:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] False Errata

The link in the article claiming to be the Unabomber's manifesto with an errata, it's not in fact an errata, as in an article with side notes correcting factual mistakes. It is just some guy giving his opinion, sometimes very easily disputed. This link violates the principle of partiality, since his opinions represent a particular vision of one author about a political movement, which response is not represented. Most of the arguments presented are somewhat basic concerning the types of questions that are lengthily dealt with by various well-established authors.Maziotis 23:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to get the link of, nor did I try myself to do that. But I just wanted to possibly warn you about this disguised form of cheap propaganda.Maziotis 12:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First sentance not NPOV

I felt the wording of the first sentanced emphasized his role as a terrorist too much. He was and did other things. I felt it neglected that he was noteworthy in other aspects of his life. In general I think that his crimes as terrorist are overshadowing his work in mathematics. Terrorist might be too emotional a word as well.

This article tells mostly about his crimes. If I understood graduate math I'd help out more. But I'll leave that to the mathematicians out there.

Changed from:

Theodore John (Ted) Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), also known as the Unabomber, is an American terrorist convicted...

Changed to:

Theodore John (Ted) Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), most known as the Unabomber, is an American mathematics professor, political activist and essayist. Considered a terrorist by many, he was convicted...

While "terrorist" may be an unnecessary characterization, the notability of his "political activism" and essays is primarily dependent on his bombings. Stating merely "he was the Unabomber" is not at all helpful for someone who does not already know who the Unabomber is. —Centrx→talk • 01:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any evidence he was known for his mathematical contributions. I havent heard that he made any m,athematical contribution but instead dropped out after showing an unfulfilled potential. I would equally say that his ideas are significant and that while his ideas wouldnt be being discussed without him having blackmailed the press that he would commit more atrocities if they didnt publish them that the ideas are not being discussed because he was a terrorist but because of the quality of his thinking. This is why Bill Joy and others who loath terrorism take the ideas seriously, SqueakBox 02:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

According the article, a member of his dissertation committee states that "I would guess that maybe 10 or 12 people in the country understood or appreciated" his dissertation, and that he held a National Science Foundation fellowship. He also has 9 publications in major peer-reviewed mathematics journals. As for essayist, he wrote one essay. I am still tentative about mathematician, the reason it is there is it seems strange to have a biography begin "Ted Kaczynski is a person who bombed...". —Centrx→talk • 02:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesnt surprise me what you say given what I perceive as the quality of his later thinking though I would still argue that what makes him notable is not his mathematics but his crimes and particularly his thinking (I am disgusted by his crimes and would have no interest in him were it not for his essay, which makes a mockery of his claim that nobody would have listened to him if he hadnt murdered people as it his ideas not his crimes that are truly notable). But I am not suggesting changing the opening as he unquestionably was a mathematician even though that in itself wouldn't have warranted an article here, SqueakBox 04:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I like what you've done mostly. I made 2 small changes; 1. Where you've said "mathematician and hermit" I changed it to "mathematician turned hermit" to reflect that he abandoned his highbrow academic life. As for his claim being a mockery, I'd have to disagree. In the piece that you quoted, clearly he was noteworthy for his accomplishments in math. He was obviously well respected in certian acedemic circles. It was his political ideas, not his MATHEMATICAL theories that he felt others would not listen to had he not committed the bombings. I would still argue that he was a political activist and essayist. He did write more than one essay outlining the political motivation behind his acts and his terrorism IS his activism. Simply because you or I do not agree with his methods, does not mean that what he did was not political activism. Activism is not necessarily harmless.

oops... I said two things! I added his terminal degree after his name.

What I disagree with is Kaczynski's claim that he had to kill people to get his political ideas across whereas I would argue that if he had stayed in the academic community he could have created a voice for himself through academic brilliance and hard work in the way that Noam Chomsky, another brilliant academic with radical ideas, has done. Indeed Chomsky is much more influential than Kaczynski. Had Kaczynski been an academic people would have listened more not less to his ideas. I have certainly had people refuse to discuss his ideas with me because of his criminal record, they believe that precludes the possibility of taking his ideas seriously which is very sad as Kaczynski's ideas of technological domination are worthy of far more mainstream debate and are certainly more relevant than they were 11 years ago, a debate I believe Kaczynski could well have initiated if he had been a respectable mathematics professor. Mathematician turned hermit reads well, SqueakBox 17:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


Chomsky was in his hit-list. So I doubt he would have wanted to be anything like Chomsky so that more people would listen to him.delmet 12:28, 11 Aug 2006 (UTC)

Really? I never heard that. Wow, that's kinda surprising to me. Do you have a source? Ungovernable ForceThe Wiki Kitchen! 08:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/thehour_player.html?20060313-Activism_chomsky. delmet 19:58, 12 Aug 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Math skills

The article says "He did well overall from an academic standpoint but reports some difficulty with mathematics in his sophomore year. He was subsequently placed in a more advanced math class and mastered the material, then skipped the 11th grade."

If he was having difficulty with math which I doubt, why would he be placed in a higher level? Could someone fix this?

Perhaps he didn't like the teacher, or 10th grade math was geometry when he was adept at algebra. Theres a few reasons why this might be the case 71.236.169.89 02:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

He gained his doctorate in a particular area of geometry.

[edit] Definition of a serial killer - third party comment requested

There have been a couple of edits and reverts contesting the term "serial killer" as applied to Ted. I chime in on the side of describing Kaczynski as a "serial killer" being valid for the following reasons (Summary of reasons below - He fits a lot of accepted definitions as a "serial killer."):

1. Popular dictionary definition. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th edition ISBN 0395825172) definition in its entirety states: "A person who attacks and kills victims one by one in a series of incidents."
2. Subject dictionary definition. The Dictionary of Criminal Justice (ISBN 0070307091) definition of "serial murder" cites the FBI definition to simply be "the killing of several victims in three or more separate events."
3. Google. A search for the phrase "serial killer" with "unabomber" turns up 39,400 hits (alternately searching for "Kaczynski" with "serial killer" turns up 26,600 hits) which indicates that a large number of folks considered the "Unabomber" to be a serial killer, including the FBI unit involved in investigating the Unabomber case.
4. Professional literature. R.M. Holmes and J. Deberger's work, Serial Murder (ISBN 0803928408) defines "serial murder" by the traits of the suspect thus:
  • repetitive homicide, continuing if not prevented
  • primarily one-on-one
  • relationship (victim-perpetrator) usually one of stranger or slight acquaintance, strong affiliation seldom
  • motivation is to kill; no conventional passion crime or victim-precipitated
  • intrinisic motive (not apparent or clear-cut) and ordinarily not for passion, personal gain or profit
5. Wikipedia. The entry Serial killer defines the term as ". . . someone who commits three or more murders over an extended period of time with cooling-off periods in between. In between their crimes, they appear to be quite normal, a state which Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare call the "mask of sanity."

Definitions are always arguable (and in the professional literature, there is no single definition for this term) but it is undeniable that there is a wide array of NPOV support for defining and categorizing Ted Kaczynski as a "serial killer." This term does not rule out defining Ted as an anarchist or a terrorist (these terms are not mutually exclusive). It is a disservice to searchers of wikipedia to remove the term "serial killer" from the Kaczynski article. As it is a thorough and well written article, the reader should be able to determine from their own experiences, philosophies, and definitions as to whether or not Ted is warranted the sobriquet of "serial killer." A responsible wikipedian should wary about inflicting any possible unsupported belief that Kaczynski is not a "serial killer" on a reader. It's okay to disagree with a term or a definition, but if the definition can be supported, I'd say it's accurate.

I'll leave the omission of the term and missing categorization in the article for now to allow some time for discussion and counter-argument herein.

-- Quartermaster 13:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


"Serial killers are people who kill on at least three occasions with a break in between each murder. The crimes committed are a result of a compulsion that may have roots in the killer's (often dysfunctional) youth and psychopathological disorders, as opposed to those who are motivated by financial gain (e.g., contract killers) or ideological/political motivations (e.g., terrorism, democide)." -in wikipedia

Who is to say that the unabomber didn't kill for political reasons, therefore being, as most, a terrorist. To call him a serial killer is just a political attitude and not being fair to a "fact", as I have heard here. Just read his story. He spent most of his time in the wild without hurting anyone. Who can prove that, almost over a decade, what set him of to murder was a psycological drive to do it?Maziotis 08:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The categories under which Kaczynski can be classified are not mutually exclusive, which includes the term "serial killer". Note that Ted Bundy spent most of his life not killing people - I would say with the rare historic exception, most serial killers spend 99 percent of their lives not killing people (an exception might be Gilles de Rais). Please note my mention of Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare and the "mask of sanity." A statement that he spent most of his time not hurting someone (yet still found time to kill three people and maim a few others) fits scholarly analyses of the use of the term "serial killer."
I have yet to see where the term "serial killer" is imbued with political attributes one way or the other. My point is that avoiding the appelation "serial killer" to Kaczysnki without any support against the definition of the term as applied to Kaczynski's actions is an act of opinion. Is it political to call him a "white male" which also is a charged term under many circumstances? He is indeed "white" and "male" and he unambiguously killed three people in series. Serial. Killer.
As usual, I'll delay any editing action in lieu of being convinced otherwise by rational and supported argument (and I don't mean that snarkily - convince me with reason backed by evidence). I already stated that definitions are arguable, which is why I listed an array of reasons, rather than any single argument, for continuing to accurately refer to Kaczynski as a serial killer or murderer.
--Quartermaster 16:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
By definition, yes, he was a serial killer. I dont think anyone disputes that he killed multiple people on seperate occasions. I believe the objections are to connotations the term has acquired, and confusion as to how his motives relate to the term. While he classes himself as a terrorist (presumably seeing his own motives as political), it does not mean he was also a serial killer. This does not change the fact that the term is not selectively applied based on motives. Just because some people think he was like Ted Bundy when they hear the term doesnt mean he wasnt, even though he may not have killed for pure pleasure. Anyhow, he fits the definition so I have no objection in the article classing him as such. 3dom 14:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

My argument didn't concern the fact that he didn't spend most of his time killing people, while being an active murderer. What I pointed out was to the fact that he spent most of his life without showing any of the characteristic signs of an individual who has a psychological drive for murderer. There is lots of evidence that he did whish to be left alone during the decade, or so, that he spent in the wild, while he was not hurting anyone. The killing and maiming only came much later and he did tried to struggle against industrialism by other means, before. I suggest you read the unnamed essay written by him in 1971.

Regarding the term "serial killer" being ambiguous, I totally agree with you. That is why it seems to me that to consider him a serial killer to be a sign of bad faith. Of course on a much broader sense of the term he may be consider a "serial killer", since he killed in a series of murderers. But if you read his story, I believe the term "terrorist" applies more closely to what is generally perceive, by our culture, what is the type of crime he as commmitted.Maziotis 18:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


I'll state again that almost all "serial killers" don't spend most of their time killing people. It's a non-argument since most of us don't spend all of our time doing any one thing. Again, Ted Bundy didn't spend 2 out of every 3 minutes killing people. I'll also state again that the terms we're discussing are not mutually exclusive. Kaczynski is BOTH serial killer and terrorist (and white, and male, and a mathematician, and a convicted felon, and a hermit, and an anarchist . . .) He can be many things at the same time. The ambiguity of many terms is undeniable, which is why I buttressed my argument for labelling him a serial killer with more than a single definition or reason. Don't know where "bad faith" comes into play when using a defined term that fits. No snark here, but I have no idea what one means by saying ". . . it seems to me that to consider him a serial killer to be a sign of bad faith." I'm not dealing in faith, rather, I'm dealing in accurately describing the man with a relevant term. -- Quartermaster 13:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, I don't think you understood my argument concerning that "kaczynski didn't spend most of his life killing people". I am not speaking about his life, on a day-to-day basis, while being an active murderer. What I am saying is that it is not common for a serial killer to dwell around the reasons that are implicated in the act of murder, but only actually killing, and even starting to consider, many decades later. Ted Bundy had his first confirmed victim while he was 27 and he is believed to have killed even earlier, in his teens. Kaczynski fought against industrialism for many years, seeking non-violent means. So you can't argue that him being a luddite is just a justification for his psychological drive for murder, which is what’s suggested in comparison with one who murderers prostitutes arguing that he is "cleaning the streets", as a rational explanation.

I do believe that you are acting on bad faith, because you are not considering the man, Ted Kacynski, on other levels. Of course, at this point, I am speaking on a very personal level. You speak of these categories and how they are not mutually exclusive, as this was simple applied science and there were no emotional implications with these terms. When you write an article about Ted Kaczynski and describe the man as a Serial killer, rather than a Terrorist, people will think of his story, before reading it, as more close to the likes of Ted Bundy, instead of Carlos the jackall. Of course these names do not represent strict categories. They are rather personal concepts in my mind, but they do relate to most people. I do agree that technically, perhaps, Ted Kaczynski could be consider a "serial killer" in the more strict sense of the term. But I believe that this term is further from reality. In fact, I believe that it is wrong in the sense that most psychologists use the term, since there isn't a typical psychopathic personality involved, for the reasons described in the first paragraph.Maziotis 14:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact that the man murdered three people. Murdered them. Dead. He thought about what he was doing. He planned how to do it. He did it. One at a time. You can't unbecome a virgin just because you only had sex once. Kaczynski's life before he became a serial killer is irrelevant in correctly applying the term. His life is relevant for understanding the context of his actions. However, I posit that it is in no way an act of "bad faith" to apply a term that is accurate and correct. There are definitely differences between Kaczynski and Bundy (quantity of those killed; motivation; timing; means), but the similarities between the two include the fact they share a first name and that they are, by definition, serial killers. Please note that I am not using my personal definition of the term.
I can applaud and admire your personal defense of the good character of Mr. Kaczynski, but I must respectfully disagree with your defense when it comes to avoiding the application of the appropriate appellation "serial killer" to Mr. Kaczysnki. It's ok to dislike that the term is applied, but he is what he is. --Quartermaster 19:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Motives and other circumstances are, in fact, essential to determine if someone is a serial killer or not. It seems that you insist that he is a serial killer solely because he killed three people on separate occasions, but on that case, wouldn't a soldier in war be considered a serial killer? Of course the context of his life matters, and the fact that someone that kills several people is not considered a serial killer because he is in a war, is part of that context.

I am guessing by your logic that any terrorist is a serial killer. For you, there isn't a necessity for the distinction of both terms. I disagree. And for what I have read, experts don't seem to use the term "serial killer" as lightly as you.

Serial killers, like Ted Bundy, need to kill like you and I need to eat. They have a very strong psychological drive for murder and they kill for the sake of killing. That is essentially what distinguishes them from terrorists and mercenaries. Basically, as far as I'm concern, when you call Ted Kaczynski a serial killer, you are stating that if he weren't caught when he did, he would have break his promise, made in a letter, and kill again for his personal need. Even though he explains in that letter how it would not be in his best interest to break his promise, since he needs credibility and the exposure of his ideals are a priority, he would either make an excuse or not even try. I don't think you can prove any of that, nor can you present a psychological evaluation where you explain how his murders where motivated by a deep psychological hunger.Maziotis 20:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Your arguments would be stronger if you actually cited sources, rather than personal opinion. In the spirit of NPOV, which I think you should review, personal opinion and personal definitions are problematic in the wikipedia universe. When you state
Of course these names do not represent strict categories. They are rather personal concepts in my mind, but they do relate to most people.
you are outing yourself as a non-neutral party. Further, when you fail to cite from whence your definitions come, you undermine your case. I am very open to reasoned and supported arguments as to the issue of not labelling Kaczynski a serial killer, but personal opinion isn't the way to changing my mind. Being accused of acting in "bad faith" and having a "political agenda" just aren't powerful arguments for making a case.
Your counter arguments bringing up a solider or a terrorist as a serial killer are easily refuted. For the record, a soldier and a terrorist CAN be serial killers if they meet the definitions for such. I don't use the term lightly, nor heavily. I use the term correctly.
In reference to a statement like ". . . experts don't seem to use the term 'serial killer' as lightly as you." I refer you to an article from the Sacramento Bee (July 14, 1995):
"I feel I know this guy. He will not stop bombing," said Eric Hickey, a social psychologist who is considered a national expert on serial killers and has been consulted on the Unabomber case.
"If they don't publish the manuscript, he's going to blow up someone rather quickly," said Hickey, who teaches criminal psychology at California State University, Fresno. "If they do publish, he may put it off for a while. But when the publicity dies down and he's not in the press anymore, he's going to strike again."
I would say citing a national expert on serial killlers who is consulted by the FBI on the case of the Unabomber is yet another compelling piece of third party support (not my opinion, rather, an "expert" opinion) for the appropriate use of the label.
-- Quartermaster 14:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I had already read that article. I know what the FBI and other have been calling him for a very long time, even before actually meeting him and knowing something about his story. I have also read about their predictions and how they sometimes fail miserably. I don't care about FBI and their agenda, and I am also not afraid of being a "non-neutral" party. Personally, I believe that you are simply masked as one, with full respect.

I believe that my arguments rest on solid rational points, that you may be open to it or not. Regarding the "soldier", for example, you simply fail to address my argument. I understand that you have a clear picture of what a serial killer is, and i wasn't suggesting that you would be embarrassed by the fact that a soldier could act in a way which would necessarily revealed him as being part of the same category as the Unabomber. When I spoke of the soldier, i was using him for my analogy as exactly what defines him as a soldier. What I was arguing for was that to describe a serial killer simply as someone who "kills three people or more, in different occasions" is not enough, since many people would fall under this category without obviously being serial killers (like soldiers, as such)

Again, I am not afraid to speak about what I "feel" is right when the subject concerns precisely that. Technically there are infinite "categories" that address a person, but you have to use your judgment and your perceptions related to the judgment of others, to make a call. As for the citations and the need to make NPOV decisions, I rely on the point I made after citing an article in wikipedia. The "killing of three or more" simply does not stand as the only condition for the definition of the "serial killer" category.

Finally, I suggest you go visit the category "serial killers", here in wikipedia, and read, randomly, some of the bios there. Maybe you will se my point...Maziotis 15:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


If you please, I would rather you cease casting unsupported aspersions regarding my motives. Yours have been stated clearly and unambiguously as being personal. I am wary that you feel this way because I sense you could be a valuable contributor to wikipedia otherwise. Once again, I urge you to read the entry on NPOV and consider what wikipedia is (and isn't). When there are definitions, experts, the FBI, and books that refer to Ted Kaczynski as a "serial killer" stacked against someone's personal opinion, it's hard to continue a logical dialogue. I find your passion for defending the Unabomber to be admirable, but misplaced. I feel very neutral about the man, personally, especially since he is locked up for life and thus no threat to anyone.
I'll leave your recent deletion of the reference to Ted as a "serial killer" in lieu of third party input. I originally put it there assuming that a week's discussion with no valid counter-argument by anyone would be sufficient but underestimated your personal stake. I'll leave this without comment or contribution for a week to consider your position in the context of the wikipedia philosophy.
Anybody else want to chime in here before I start down the mediation trail (hey, it'll be my first time)?
-- Quartermaster 20:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your answer seems to indicate that you have only read my first paragraph...Maziotis 20:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

None of the other articles, here on wikipedia, call him a serial killer. Some of them call him a terrrorist. So I have change the setence from "the Unabomber, is an anarcho-primitivist and serial killer who some have called a terrorist" to "the Unabomber, is an anarcho-primitivist and terrorist who some have called a serial killer", assuming that most people call him a "terrorist". I may be wrong...

Perhaps "who some have call (whatever)" should be between commas.

I hope this solution satisfies most.Maziotis 21:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable, and accurate approach to me. Might I suggest a bit of re-wording (see below) for stylistic purposes? The sentence is getting a bit unwieldy. Here's what we currently have:
Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), also known as the Unabomber, is an anarcho-primitivist and terrorist who some have called a serial killer who gained notoriety for sending mail bombs to several universities and airlines from the late 1970s to the early 1990s, ultimately killing three people and wounding 29.
See if this wording still satisfies the goals of accuracy while not being personally damning; I think our point of agreement is that there are those who do and don't consider him a serial killer, but the definition has been applied "by some."
Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), also known as the Unabomber, is an anarcho-primitivist and terrorist who gained notoriety for sending mail bombs to several universities and airlines from the late 1970s to the early 1990s. He has been labeled by some as a serial killer as he ultimately killed three people and wounded 29.
I think the term "labeled" is more neutral in that it demonstrates that the term is applied to the man by third parties, as opposed to the man BEING that term. My only agenda all along is use of accurate language. Let me know if this works for you. - Quartermaster 18:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weird Al

Removed the section claiming that Weird Al Yankovic was considered a suspect, I assume if it's not a joke, it's just based on the similarity between Weird Al and the forensic sketch. If someone has a source, they can of course put it back- and fix the various spelling mistakes while they are at it :). Thedoorhinge 17:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, someone else removed it while I was typing my intention to do so. Thedoorhinge 17:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Any possibilities linking him to the Zodiac killer?

Or is it a urban legend?- Sparky 17:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thought by many

What is the reason for this vagueness in the beginning of the article? Someone who publishes a 35,000 word anarcho-primitivist manifesto is by definition an anarcho-primitivist. Also, his bombing campaign was designed to terrorize academia into stopping technological progress, which is by definition, terrorism. This isn't similar to the Palestine/Israel issue, where one could justify words like "guerrilla" and "militant" by painting Hamas and others as paramilitary organizations fighting an occupying force. He was targetting civilians to instill fear among civilians, not to achieve a military aim - ergo, he's a terrorist. Unigolyn 23:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on the first point. I've replaced the "thought by many" phrase with a reference to his acts as popularly deemed terroristic, with a footnote to his letter to the New York Times; calling him a terrorist outright, whatever the objective merits, is still likely to generate controversy. --zenohockey 01:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think saying "For his actions, which many deem terroristic" to be an improvement. I'm on board with Unigolyn here. By definition he is (among other things) a terrorist. The Encyclopedia of American Crime by Carl Sifakis (2nd ed., vol. 2, p. 907, 2001 ; ISBN 0816046344) unabashedly uses the term "terrorist" to refer to Kaczynski: "Whoever was victimized by a bomber attack deserved no sympathy as far as the mysterious terrorist was concerned." I think it's perfectly accurate and justifiable to just call him a terrorist. Pointing to standard external references that also say so (as was done) is always a good idea. -- Quartermaster 14:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Self described terrorist?!

That self-description about Kaczynski proclaiming to be a terrorist is a fallacies deduction. It is a conclusion of a quote put out of context. When he says “he will stop his terrorist” activities”, he is describing himself trough the values of the police, to whom he was writing, and not his own. Let's say that in that same letter he would have said, "Print my manifesto and I will stop my terrible actions". Would you say that the Unabomber had considered his actions to be terrible? Of course not. He considers them to be positive in the context of what he considers it needs to be done, and at the same time he acknowledges how his enemies might see his actions, and speak to them on those terms. He would be calling them "terrible" for the sake of the threat it represents, although within his own values those same actions are seen as relatively good.

The Unabomber didn't proclaim himself as a terrorist. He said that he would stop his "terrorist" actions, to the authorities, which he knew they would always be addressed in terms of the values of the police. In his view, his actions might be considered as a way to freedom. It a question of language and the fact that while the Unabomber was trying to communicate with the police, he address his actions in those terms, without considering the context of his ideology, which represents in whole his view on the subject.

For these reasons, I believe that this label is political in nature and misleading.Maziotis 22:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think I agree, there is no evidence that he thought of himself as a terrorist based on what you say, SqueakBox 23:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Whether he thought of himself or proclaimed to be a terrorist or not, he used fear as a manipulating tactic to further his own political doctrine. 3dom 15:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe your are missing the point. This section does not regard the discussion to whether Unabomber is a terrorist or not. We are discussing if it makes sense to judge kaczynski as a self proclaimed terrorist or not, based on that reference mentioned above. The point is to change the article, accordingly.Maziotis 19:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Terrorist is a weasel word that needs to not be in the opening. To describe hinm as a terrorist is POV that we dont even use to describe Osama bin Laden, 20:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)SqueakBox

Yes. I agree. If Osama is a "islamist militant", why can't the unabomber be an "anarchist militant"? His actions are not less political in nature than those of Osama, and those who try to define to what degree cannot be objective.Maziotis 01:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better Picture? (again)

Better picture? Is there a better picture of this man available? The current one is too small. Also, most post-arrest photographs are very undignified.--Iusenospace 03:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I found a picture and placed it in the article. Its credited to AP but should be allowable under fair use, hopefully.--Nayra

I agree. This problem, which had already been dealt with, has return. Can we fix that again? I don't know if you agree with what is said by the users Iusenospace and Nayra. Please discuss.Maziotis 17:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, the picture is larger. Thank you. Now, can we perhaps find a picture that isn't as much "undignified"? The one we had before was more of a neutral picture, which anyone could regard as being appropriate. I was hoping we could find that sort of a picture.Maziotis 19:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It'd be good to have a more recent and less spooked one (he like most people in mugshots must be super freaked out). I dont imagine there are any of his years as a hermit but the reality is he is now a prisoner so best off to find one as current as possible, SqueakBox 20:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The old picture was pretty good, I agree. The current picture is too undignified. I'd rather not have a picture at all than have the current one - it serves no purpose. It doesn't actually show us what the man looks like in any way. Does anyone agree that we should remove it? 198.138.40.146 23:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I definitely agree we should put another one. This photo concerns a particular and awkward moment in this person's life, and it should be replace by one more "neutral". As you said, it doesn’t show us the man; at least, not as a person.Maziotis 23:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I support a better pic but the sketch isnt a photo and we need to have a pic as up to date as possible per wiki style guidelines. But do keep trying, SqueakBox 22:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok.Maziotis 23:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Can the "fair use" picture be used in legal terms? We all agreed that the "free image" picture was inappropriate, so I am to conclude that either we should put no picture or the "fair use" one.Maziotis 10:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The "fair use" picture is from a news agency, making it a violation of fair use criterion 2, as specifically exemplified by counterexample 5. —Angr 10:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC) I believe we should find a third picture that is both appropriate and legal.Maziotis 14:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone put the mughshot photo back up. I am not going to be the kaczynski's front photo police. If you think you should take it out, do it.Maziotis 10:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Appareance in Good Will Hunting

In the film Good Will Hunting there is a little reference to him. Does it is interesant to add to the article?

Sure. logologist|Talk 12:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling Errors

Which is the source for the spelling errors? I have found a post on the discussion section of the Unabomber’s manifesto article, in wikisource, that makes a good point.

I'd like to take a vote on fixing the typos (and paragraphs 220 and 221 being merged) mentioned above. My position is that the sources we have to go off of are flawed. Most online sources have a missing paragraph--a carry over from one of the original newspaper publications. Since they leave off a whole paragraph, I don't think we should trust their silly typos are also accurate.

As for the argument that even the smartest of us make these kinds of errors, I don't think that Kaczynski would make these kinds of errors in a manifesto that he had worked on for years, and hoped that he would be remembered by. I just can't imagine that he wouldn't have glanced over the manuscript and caught these before sending it off to press.

I might favor letting these get by if we had confirmation that both the original Times and Post publications had each of these typos, but if we can't get this confirmation, I think we should go with the Filiquarian edition, which contains none of these typos. --24.124.84.133 02:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the sentence concerning these spelling errors with reference to both possibilities of the mistakes being made by the author himself or the ones who have typed it for printing.Maziotis 17:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ted and Asperger's

Is anyone aware of any authoritative evidence that Ted has Asperger's Syndrome? He has many of the symptoms. Ehusman 15:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancies from the authorities

I remember when he was first arrested. The first statements were that his cabin was empty. Within a very short time - his cabin became crammed with more junk than ten cabins could have held. This slight inconsistancy was never mentioned - maybe not noticed by most. I have always wondered how empty turned into truck loads. It must be true - the FBI told us so.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.219 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ted's IQ

What is the point of this? To suggest that he wasn't smart after all? I don't think there's any question that he is unusually intelligent and this seems like quibbling to me.

According to various accounts, testing showed him to have a high IQ and, by his account, his parents were told he was a genius. He claims that his IQ was in the 160-to-170 range. Testing supposedly conducted at that time has not been made available for review.

Eperotao 22:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Identifying Kaczynski as a terrorist and a multiple-murderer or mass murderer

I have copied over a discussion begun between User:Maziotis and myself regarding the absence of terms including terrorist and variously multiple-murderer or mass murderer and my contention that they should be returned to the article's header paragraph. In previous discussions, lack of participation resulted in "consensus" between only two editors. It is my hope that a greater number of participants will choose to engage in this discussion.

I have to make the comment here since your comment is posted as a header for this discussion and it is false in its assertion. The consensus was not between two persons. There were multiple third parties. I never took the liberty in changing the beginning of the article for the non-Pov term, the way it is now.

curious to see that the title itself, which you have choesen, is POV. You are starting a debate by defining the objective of it from the start: "Identifying Kaczynski as a terrorist and a multiple-murderer or mass murderer "Maziotis 14:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Hello Maziotis! It's alright, I suppose, to disagree with either term I added, but, quite clearly, Kaczynski is a bit more than an average anarchist. I would think that as he is insane, a mass murderer -- if not a serial killer, and a terrorist -- in the tradtional sense of the term mention immediately in the article's header is warranted. How do you suggest this information be added or phrased in order to incorporate it there? 67.101.243.74 05:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You can find my impressions on this matter in the discussion section, which is where you should participate and find consensus.

Regarding your position, I must say right away that the category "mass murder" is clearly not suitable, while others might be very controversial. Ted Kaczynski killed three people on separate occasions, which technically leaves him out of that definition.

If you want my opinion regarding your personal message, consider this: Do you believe that Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist? Do you believe that he is insane? Well, to wikipedia neither what you believe of Osama, nor Kaczynski, matters. If you go to Osama article you will find that he is labeled as a "militant Islamist". That article has high traffic and it was asserted for some time now that, following the wikipedia’s guidelines, he should not be classified as a serial killer, mass murder or even a terrorist. Now, have you read kaczynski's manifesto and the justifications that he gave to send those bombs? In what way would you consider Kaczynski's actions to be less political in nature than those of Osama bin laden's? So, answering your question, how about "militant anarchist" as for the initial category in the article?Maziotis 12:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

  • There's nothing redeeming about either person; I think, simply, that the basis of their criminality should be made clear as that is undoubtedly the most obvious aspect of both figures when one would look for either's article, which is, after all, the foremost use of an encyclopedia. 67.101.243.74 13:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Who defines that? Will you change "osama" article according to those (yours) principles? I understand that you might find this way of argument to be a form of absolute relativism and, as such, unacceptable. But these questions I ask are not rhetoric ones. They are honest straightforward questions. I would like to know what would you do to both of these articles, and what is your position to the issue I raise, regarding the applied wikipedia's guidelines in osama's article, in order for you to be consistent.

Personally, I believe that Theodore Kaczynski is a political prisoner. But my political and moral views on this subject are irrelevant, no matter with how many people I share them with, just like yours.Maziotis 13:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I have read your arguments on the discussion page for the article since writing my reply to you. I find your position on the matter indefensible and ridiculous, but, as you would agree, that is neither here nor there. With regard to the "Osama" article, according to my principles, which almost certainly correspond directly to the principles of every sound beneficiary of contemporary civilization -or, at the least, the overwhelming majority of the English-speaking peoples for whom this encyclopedia is maintained- it should make immediate mention that he is a terrorist and a mass murderer. To suggest otherwise goes so far beyond moral relativism as to make the sentiment simply demented. There is such a thing as a terrorist and there is such a thing as a mass murderer. If there were not, the terms would not have use. There is, to-day, no more widely acknowledged example of a terrorist than Osama bin Laden, who is, by consequence of his activities, a mass murderer. Yet, we digress, as I have not seen that article nor have I, at present, any want to edit the "Osama" article, but only to ensure that the "Kaczynski" article is undistorted and legitimate. You have asked "who defines that?" Who defines what? I suggested nothing that should not be self-evident and I did not put forth some term that is vague or undefined. A terrorist is one who engages in acts of violence or fear-mongering that resultantly causes terror. By all accounts, and from what I have read on the discussion page, even his own account, Kaczynski is a terrorist. It does not matter whether some insensible editor has applied his efforts to remove that language from the "Osama" article or any other article because it is an irrefutable fact that Kaczynski is a terrorist. One can always engage in word-play and conjecture to affect the removal of a correct and legitimate term, but it is rather a show of incompetence than an act of scholarship. Also, as Kaczynski has murdered --that is, knowingly and premeditatingly killed-- multiple others, he is a multiple murderer. I would consider him a serial killer, but again, that would be a personal determination. The fact of the matter is that he is a multiple-murderer. If one chooses to split hairs, one can say that "mass murderer" is inappropriate based on number of those killed, but because the term "multiple-murderer" is definitely lesser applied than "mass murderer," the latter would seem more natural in expressing that quality of Kaczynski. The position you have taken, regardless of my belief that it is indefensible and ridiculous, is to employ semantic concerns to the fact that he is a terrorist and a multiple-murderer, if not a mass murderer. Those concerns, and the insistence that he not be labeled with those quite correct terms, immediately demonstrates a personal insecurity with your ideology. That is, is your belief in Kaczynski's ideology authentic or is it simply awe with the terrible crimes he has committed, disguised by exercises in intellectual discourse, such that you must refuse to recognize the fact that his acts were terrorism and murder? 67.101.243.74 16:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The above were the comments I copied over from user talk pages' discussion. Further arguments should begin below here. 67.101.243.74 17:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


I think we could call him a serial kiler but we cannot call him a terrorist, see Wikipedia:Words to avoid, SqueakBox 14:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I have never argued that Kaczynski should not be called a murderer or a terrorist, in the beginning of the article. You said that you have read my posts, but in it I discuss, technically, if his profile fits the common use of the term "serial killer". Since this term, as the term "terrorist", are widely identified as controversial in themselves, I do not understand why would you assume with such a clear voice how these terms are applied in an "evident" way. Another person changed the consensus that was reached by the end of that conversion and, from there, other people came and changed it to the way it is now, without a different consensus being made again.

All that talk about civilization values are just your own view on how wikipedia should be use to reaffirm what you perceive as common social values, just like television, radio, and mass media in general, has done in the past. I am not saying that is wrong, I am just looking for the wikipedia guidelines that define clearly that objective, and in what way.

Some people do feel confuse on exactly what constitutes a neutral and factual point of view, and on how further powerful technological tools, as the easily accessible wikipedia, could be promiscuous in the way we have discussed and find time to reflect on our own, in the past. For some people, nothing of this is obvious. I do not find challenged in any way by your comments as to how "ridiculous" and “indefensible" I am.Maziotis 14:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Ted Kaczynski, he did not send bombs to establish a sense of terror in the community, to further his political goals. Or at least, that expression is not "evident". According to his argument, he was trying to eliminate concrete targets, as calling for others to join in the movement, to participate in a revolution against Industrialism. Some people look at this facts and say, like you, that clearly he is a "terrorist", others might say something like "revolutionary".Maziotis 14:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

In the last discussion we had reached the conclusion that multiple point of views should be expressed in the article itself. Like the suggestion: "Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), also known as the Unabomber, is an anarcho-primitivist and terrorist who some have called a serial killer who gained notoriety for sending mail bombs to several universities and airlines from the late 1970s to the early 1990s, ultimately killing three people and wounding 29."Maziotis 15:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

How about how it is now, with SqueakBox last change? It states that his campaign was murderous and infamous. Further Classification, such as "terrorist", is perceived by wikipedia as a word to avoid, as SqueakBox made it clear.Maziotis 15:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly the kind of discussion that caused me to become disillusioned with wikipedia and realize the idea of an open-editing encyclopedia is fundamentally flawed. As a 16 year veteran of my home state's profiling unit, I can tell you right off the bat that Ted Kaczynski is a textbook domestic terrorist. His so called philosophy is completely irrelevant in stating whether he is a terrorist or not. While I don't think it matters where in the article it says it, it's 100% right to assume that an article on the man would note that he was a terrorist and a serial killer before saying anything about his personal philosophy, anarchism, primitivism, or any other excuse for his gross crimes against other people. And that's what it's really all about: other people; not how the guy describes himself. I guess the point is, it's fundamentally wrong, a non neutral pov, and disingenuine to avoid calling him what he is because you're off the wall enough to think his philosophy has any merit whatsoever. I hope you wise up. OBriain 03:12, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

    • Again... I did not say he should not be called a terrorist. SqueakBox did, while citing a wikipedia guideline article. Perhaps this is an important point to discuss, to wether we should call him "this" or "that" and "where". Why don't you visit Wikipedia:Words to avoid and give us your opinion?

Is this a dispute about how to label him or how to describe why he's noteworthy? He killed three people, injured many more, and that's why his words, his philosophy, receives note anywhere, including at wikipedia. And here at wikipedia, editors shouldn't get turned upside down between the forest and the trees. Maybe there is reason to avoid some labels such as terrorist, but murderous? If someone commits murder, especially multiple murder, aren't the activities they deliberately engage in to accomplish exactly this accurately defined as murderous? At some point, the hairsplitting to avoid such words is sentimentally precious, to the point of being stubbornly oblivious.Professor marginalia 04:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. I believe we should avoid controversial labels such as "terrorist" and "serial killer" and try to describe him in the most factual sense possible. I think it was fine the way it was before, when his campaign was described as "murderous".Maziotis 13:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

    • It's frustrating that these labels tend to be seen as controversial on a personal level, and not on any objective linguistic or vocabulary level. Kaczynski is a controversial figure, so it would seem that so-called "controversial" labels are likely appropriate. Do we remove Hitler from the category of "Holocaust Perpetrators" because that term is controversial? If a so-called controversial term is linguistically and semantically accurate, not applying it reflects one's personal opinions about an article's content. It's a disservice to wikipedia searchers who might not find Ted under the categories of murderer, serial killer, or terrorist. This is particularly problematic when there are numerous mentions in the literature on the man (including book titles such as Alston Chase's Harvard and the Unabomber: The Education of an American Terrorist) using these same "controversial" terms. Nonetheless, I've taken the approach of a) avoiding any attempts to apply accurate labels here in the face of partisan personal resistance (or even any edits to the entry at all), and b) using the Kaczynski article as an example of what's bad about wikipedia when teaching others. -Quartermaster 15:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
      • CLARIFICATION: I'm a big fan and proponent of wikipedia. When I mention an "example of what's bad about wikipedia" that is in reference to the types of articles that tend to be problematic, usually well-known political figures. The negative statement isn't meant to mean that wikipedia is "bad" (it is NOT!). -Quartermaster 15:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Life in the woods of Montana

Kaczynski lived in the woods of Montana for several years as far as I know. However, this is only mentioned in a very minute way. There should be an explicit description of his life there. He lived off the woods as far as I know and since he didn't have any money. And he was arrested there. Why isn't any of that stuff in the article?? --Maxl 01:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anarchist????? Or maybe fascist?

I don't think he is an anarchist. In his book he criticised many of the beliefs of hte modern anarchist movement. It would be more accurate if we called a nihilist. But I believe that he was a fascist, read for example the Ship of Fools. Mitsos 09:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the categories "anarchist" and "terrorist" are not mutually exclusive. You can't change the first just because you believe the second is correct. We have to discuss the two separately.

You have stated that you believe he is not an anarchist and remove the category from the article without even giving a justification. Besides the fact that there was no consensus with that change, you should explain the reasons why you believe in this. As for the possibility of him being a "nihilist", again, the two terms are not exclusive. Many anarchists consider nihilism as philosophical body of knowledge of great inspiration for their ideals.

As far as I know, Theodore Kaczynski is generally considered to be a self-proclaimed anarchist and a reference to eco-anarchism and anarcho-primitivist ideas. In short, I believe that his belief in the wild life, in the strictest sense of the term, without any political institutions, such as the government, to rule people, makes him an anarchist. You should perhaps do a little research before challenging such widely accepted concepts. Of course there is always some controversies and it is not always easy to establish what makes an author belong to a certain political family or not, but that is why you need to present solid arguments to defend your positions, specially one that challenges a common notion, such as that.

Your "fascist" remark about the article “Ship of fools” is another commentary without proper explanation to back that up.Maziotis 16:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is a point, in the notes section of his manifesto, where he proclaims to be an anarchist:

34. (Paragraph 215) This statement refers to our particular brand of anarchism. A wide variety of social attitudes have been called "anarchist," and it may be that many who consider themselves anarchists would not accept our statement of paragraph 215. It should be noted, by the way, that there is a nonviolent anarchist movement whose members probably would not accept FC as anarchist and certainly would not approve of FC's violent methods.

If you want I can give several references by established eco-anarchist authors making references to him. So, clearly it seems your challenge to the fact that he is an anarchist would be of academic nature and would amount to be considered "original research", which is unacceptable by wikipedia standards.Maziotis 16:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If he is an anarchist this statement needs to be properly sourced, the opinion we have as editors isnt relevant, SqueakBox 16:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly where do you expect to find such source? There isn't an official entity responsible for the identification of anarchist authors. This category is not presented as a fact such as him being a PhD. or not. What sources can you give without being original research? It is simply common knowledge that he is anarchist. I did not revert the change with base on my opinion. I merely give the opinion in response to fulfill the possible editor's curiosity.Maziotis 17:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to give a source for each assertion you give. Just the ones that can be falsifiable, like "Theodre Kaczynski said this in 1924". As for the rest, it has to be judge in accordance with the bibliographical references and common notions, otherwise it would no be practical.

Just check other articles. You don't have to give a source when in the beginning of the chef Guevara article you classify him as a "Marxist".Maziotis 17:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but you do have to give a source if the information is disputed and right now 2 editors dispute it. You cant make this stuff up, see [[3]] and its opening, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought." IMO if you cant find a source it would indicate it is not true and knowing the manifesto well I know that Kaczynski was not promoting anarchism but anti-technology. Though a source will mean we can restore this statement, SqueakBox 17:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You are the one who is making original reaearch now. I already gave a source in which Kaczynski proclaims to be anarchist:

34. (Paragraph 215) This statement refers to our particular brand of anarchism. A wide variety of social attitudes have been called "anarchist," and it may be that many who consider themselves anarchists would not accept our statement of paragraph 215. It should be noted, by the way, that there is a nonviolent anarchist movement whose members probably would not accept FC as anarchist and certainly would not approve of FC's violent methods.

On what grounds are you to judge how he can or not be considered an anarchist?Maziotis 17:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Im sorry, but I believe you are not being very reasonable. We don't have to put a source everytime someone comes in here and challenges a setence.Maziotis 17:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The reason we need attributability is precisely because as editors it shouldnt be your or my opinion, in the WP article it says "for any material that is challenged" we need sources and that is the nub, with a source this is fine without it isnt. So you are mistaken to say "We don't have to put a source everytime someone comes in here and challenges a setence." as that is precisely what we need to do, SqueakBox 17:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

His argument concerning technology is not made from the stand that we need to reform it. His entire manifesto is about why we need to take down the whole industrial technological system, and all its institutions, in favor of wild life. This makes him, beyond doubt, that he is an anarcho-primitivism, with many references as such by other authors. If you are going to demand a source for that, I might as well demand a source for the fact that he is an American, and so on.

Not so, all you have to do is give a source for anarchist. If what you say is true it shouldnt be difficult so please do try and find a source/ And please dont ask for a source that he is American, see Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point, SqueakBox 17:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What about the citation from the manifesto?

34. (Paragraph 215) This statement refers to our particular brand of anarchism. A wide variety of social attitudes have been called "anarchist," and it may be that many who consider themselves anarchists would not accept our statement of paragraph 215. It should be noted, by the way, that there is a nonviolent anarchist movement whose members probably would not accept FC as anarchist and certainly would not approve of FC's violent methods.

I don't know which type of source can there be for defining someone in political terms.

And I don't accept your argument. I just gave that as an examp'le. I believe you are the one who truly is being disruptive.Maziotis 17:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

He doesnt say he is an anarchist in your statement. Also please remain civil, see WP:NPA. Your statement that asking for a source for a controversial statement is disruiptive is to fail to understand wikipedia policies completely and you must accept wikipedia policies if you wish your edits here not to be reverted as breaking thos policies. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

He says that he belongs to a branch of anarchism. So that means that he proclaims to be an anarchist. How can he be more clear than that? Are you saying that for him to be considered an anarchist, as for anyone to be considered as being part of any political category, there has to be a source in which the person in question says "I am anarchist"; "I am democrat"; "I am fascist"?

I guess we will have to find a third opinion.Maziotis 17:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Here he says "We are an anarchist group calling ourselves FC." but he is already lying about the "we". We do need a third opinion, ie a source that isnt Kaczynski that states he is an anarchist. Failure to find one would indicate that this statement shoudl not go inthe opening though further down we could say he proclaimed his group (sic) to be anarchist, SqueakBox 17:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides it was Mitsos who first removed the word anarchist so that is a third editorial opinion, SqueakBox 17:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

And who is qualified to classify him as an anarchist, if not himself? Do we need someone to classify the pope as a Christian or is that just common knowledge? The Unabomber defended a way for a stateless human existence. What type of source are you really looking for?

(edit conflict) he kind our policies ask for. This article, if it is to become a good article and maybe even a featured article needs good sourcing, just like all the articles at wikipedia. If what you say is true it should be easy enough to source, SqueakBox 18:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This petty fights just don't make any sense for me. I give up.Maziotis 18:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well that is a shame. Please try and source that he is an anarchist and then you will have achieved your goal and I will have achieved mine. I appreciate working here isnt easy but we ask for sources in order to better the project and its articles, not fopr any other reason, SqueakBox 18:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite frankly, to me, It is not just a question of "putting anarchist up there". I don't agree that the category should be sourced just because one day a guy, with no justification and quite clearly with "original research" motivations and you, who apparently might not recognize the importance of style besides content, challenged a simple fact when there was no other editors to top that consensus. I believe that the term "anarchist" should apply to Unabomber just as clearly as "Marxist" is applied to Che Guevara, here on wikipedia. This is the reason why I abstain. I honestly don't believe there is a reliable source for this type of category. Peace.Maziotis 18:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not disputing the category merely the inclusion of the word anarchist in the opening sentence while unsourced. I have looked for a source on googlwe with no joy. If there are no other editors here then that is how it is but wehat is important is not what editors think but that we follow policies. I cant comment on the Che article but if someone wanted a source for marxist there it would have to be given IMO. My POV is that he is primarily an anti-technologist and not primarily an anarchist, he stated that that was his priority, ie getting rid of technology. While his power processes indicate possibly anarchist tendencies we do need a source or else it may be that we are incorrect, SqueakBox 18:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I see your point. Maybe you can understand mine, and why I abstain. I must say, in response to your POV, that his anti-technology perspective cannot be separated from his anarchist one. He did not care to warn us of the limitations of human freedom from a reformist point of view. That is something he makes very clear from the start. His fight is against the growing specialized technology and its appliance in the control of human behavior, while explaining how they spawn from human civilization. That is how he presents his cause, which is clearly from the start for the destruction of industrial society. He even presents the possibility of supporting further global industrial interests, if that would later help on the strategy to destroy the whole social machine. So, his critique to technology is itself anarchist. He is for wild life, and against division of labor and all institutions that are built from it.Maziotis 19:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that this is my response to your POV. It is my opinion that it is not POV that Ted Kaczynski is an anarcho-primitivist, since he openely and visibly defends the destruction of civilization.Maziotis 19:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact that he is an enviromentalist doesn't make him an anarchist. Enviromentalism is an important part of the fascist ideology too. In fact, his criticism of left-wingers shows that he is not an anarchist. In his book, he criticises both left-wingers and conservatives, but he doesn't says anything negative about the fascists. And in any case, anyone who reads "The Ship of Fools" can understand that he is pro-fascist. Mitsos 19:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say he was an anarchist because he was an environmentalist. You simply fail to regard my argument as to how his environmentalist views are anarchist. As for the fact that his criticism of left-wingers reveals that he is not an anarchist, I must say that you are wrongfully assuming that anarchism comes from the left. I advise you to read the article post-left anarchy, here on wikipedia. In fact, the notion that he is both an anarchist and a non-leftist is not accidental. Ted Kaczynski himself is known to be one of the main authors for pushing "post-left anarchy", in green anarchist circles. Even in classic anarchism there was always the debate in which individualist anarchists and collectivist/communist anarchist would debate on social justice versus personal freedom. The fact is that anarchists have, historically, come from all sides of the traditional political spectrum, from left to right. So, if you, for example, establish the criteria that as we reach for the left we will find more preoccupation regarding social justice, and that when we reach for the right we will find more values of individual freedom, the fact is that you will find the same debate, regarding the same values, inside the anarchist family of thought. A extreme example of right wing anarchism is what as come to be known as “anarcho-capistalism”, which some, like me, regard as absurd and contradictory. But, nevertheless, this proves, as an extreme example, my point that there is in fact a liberal tradition in anarchism.

The text "the ship of fools" is quite simply an analogy on how we are all heading down for disaster while everyone seems to be paying attention to relatively trivial things, like the ones that, in kaczynski's view, are traditional of right and left politics. Most people have this interpretation, but I would like very much to understand a new one if you can explain exactly how he is a fascist in that article. I have really never seen anyone giving that point of view.Maziotis 20:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Again we would need a source for fascist but I think it highly improbable that we will find one. Fascism as an ideology is about as far from Kaczynski as any lefty philosophy and I can t think of any reason why anyone would think he is fascist, SqueakBox 20:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

In the "Ship of Fools", unabobomber criticises left-wingers and generally those who argue about things such as immigrant rights, gay rights and others, which he sees as trivial. He is also against reformers (such as the left-wing professor) and capitalists (the captain and his mates). The person who is proved to be right in the end is the one who has been callled a fascist, the one who criticised the those who argued about racism and gay rights, and supported the use of violence against the captain. That's why I think he is pro-fascist. He says that the ones who are right and can "save" the world from destruction are the ones who called fascists today, and that, of course, does not include the anarchists. This is not just my POV. In fact, what made come here was an article about the Unabomber, that analyzed his book and called him a pro-fascist (it's not a very reliable source, and that's why I 'm not using it, but it did convinced me, it made a good point).

Also, the Unabomber is not a liberal in any way, and certrainly not an anarcho-capitalist. He also criticises liberals and right-wingers in his book. "Ted Kaczynski himself is known to be one of the main authors for pushing "post-left anarchy", in green anarchist circles." Have you got a source for that? Mitsos 22:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I will read that essay again asap but all the same we need a credible source who isnt Kaczynski for this. Though also the opening to fascism here states "Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology and mass movement that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and historical terms, above all other loyalties" and that is clearly nowhere near Kaczynski's ideology, SqueakBox 22:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"Also, the Unabomber is not a liberal in any way, and certainly not an anarcho-capitalist. He also criticizes liberals and right-wingers in his book." I did not say he was a liberal or an anarcho-capitalist. Again, you are not addressing my argument. The reference to liberal tradition is part of my explanation on how "anarchism" is not rooted in "leftism"; there are no left wing values that are essential for anarchism. This point serves to dismiss your argument that the unabomber must not be anarchist because he is against leftism. The fact that there is a "post left" current in anarchism, alone, proves this.

As for the sources connecting the Unabomber to post-left anarchy, I would have to search for them; but I am sure that John Zerzan has reference him. Either way he is definitely identified as an anarchist in the green anarchist movement. And since the author himself has proclaimed to be anarchist, I don't understand where is your doubt. I have already explain to you why I believe that he is an anarchist and you have neither give me your explanation on to why he isn't nor have you address any of my arguments. As I have read many green anarchists, such as John Zerzan, referencing to him as a green anarchist, I find this debate to be superficial and pointless. You can read the articles "Whose Unabomber?" and "He means it. Do you?" by this author. Also, major green anarchist kevin Tucker has written, in the "The Message and The Messenger: FC, Ted Kaczynski, and the resisting the technological system" article: "From my reading, the manifesto really drives home two major points: the technological system must be destroyed and that any anti-technological movement must sharply break from the left.", and, "I wouldn’t question for a second that Ted’s revolution is an anarchist revolution." These are two big names in anarcho-primitivism that reference kaczynski both for his anarchist views and for how they are post-left in nature. Another expressive reference to Ted as an anarchist, within this circles, is in the article, "place blame where it belongs"; GA collective response to the article "Hit where it hurts", written by kaczynski. In it they clearly describe Kaczynski, in the first line, as an "anarchist political prisoner". This and other references show Kaczynski as a well-known, non-disputable name in green anarchist movement, and its post-left agenda.

As for the "fascist" remark, I believe he is simply being anti-leftist by using an old satire in which the left-winger sees anyone who does not acknowledge his values as "contra-revolutionary" and "fascist". That does not mean that he supports fascism. What one considers being his enemy is not necessarily what the enemy identifies himself with. There are more than two sides. Clearly, Kaczynski does not review himself within the leftist criterion, since he does not support the state as an answer to what he perceive to be the disaster that is civilization. He does not oppose left by being right. Anyway, we need to see that article to be more comfortable in debating on it. Please share it with usMaziotis 23:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, you want a mainstream reference to Kaczynski as an anarchist? Here are just a couple of references of newspapers and magazines I stumble upon online, where the Unabomber is called an anarchist without any discussion, or any other second thoughts around it:

“His report said The Bishop appears to have many of the same characteristics as the Unabomber, an anarchist whose mail bombs killed three people and wounded 23 from the late 1970s to the early 1990s.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/251166,CST-NWS-bomber10.article


This is a reference to the political ideas of his manifesto. “FBI agents had been staking out Kaczynski's hand-built cabin near the Continental Divide for several weeks, ever since relatives in the Chicago area notified authorities that they had stumbled across some of his old writings and found them similar to the Unabomber's anarchist manifestos. Without that help, the case would not have been cracked, Bertram said.”

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:a4tBBXXl1JEJ:www.cnn.com/US/9604/04/unabomber/index.html+newspaper+unabomber+anarchist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

This is a description of the man before he was caught, but after his manifesto was read, and in regard of its publishing. “SAN FRANCISCO -- Investigators are confident that publication of the Unabomber's wordy manifesto will lead them to the anarchist whose handmade devices have killed three people and hurt nearly two dozen since 1978, officials said Tuesday.”

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:6AZQZxUMcWoJ:www.unabombertrial.com/archive/1995/092095.html+newspaper+unabomber+anarchist&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13


This is a mainstream magazine reference to the support of Kaczynski as an anarchist in anarchist circles. “His papers, housed in the university's library, take up five linear feet of space and are being accorded all the academic solemnity that, say, Churchill's papers received when they went to Cambridge. Kaczynski is a self-proclaimed anarchist and since his arrest, he has had the moral support of several members of the world's anarchist community.”

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/12/17/MN153468.DTL

This only took me a few minutes. I am sure you can find more, and all from top referenced sources.Maziotis 15:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

On another note, here is a citation taken from a discussion in the talk page for the "john lydon" article. I understand that the view of another user cannot be considered an authority on the discussion of the subject, but I thought this might contribute to the deabate. This user addresses a point I was previously trying to express.

On Wikipedia, people who self-identify as anarchists are included in the category for anarchists. Example, Jello Biafra, who ran for office and advocates voting, and Murray Rothbard, an anarcho-capitalist who most anarchists do not consider an anarchist. Calling yourslef an anarchist makes you an anarchist on Wikipedia. He said his political philosophy is a form of anarchism. That makes him a self-proclaimed anarchist. That means he belongs in Category:Anarchists. You of all people do not have the authority to decide who is ad is not an anarchist. By the way, my language and rage are fine. I completely stand by what I said. -Switch t 00:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

All those citations of magazines I have found were done for the sake of the discussion. I would personally oppose to their use as reliable sources for identifying Kaczynski as an anarchist. For all the reasons I have explained before, I believe only Kaczynski himself can do that.Maziotis 16:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

If no one responds to these several references, I will add the "anarchist" label at the top of the article again, in a few days. Please discuss this or ask for a third party opinion, on wikipedia, in the proper channels.Maziotis 23:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failed: review and fixes needed

I have had to fail this article as a good article nominee as it is woefully underreferenced. For starters, a quick perusal shows several {{fact}} tags, showing that someone before me has even raised objection to several unreferenced assertions of fact. For example (and this list is NOT comprehensive) the following needed references:

  • The first three paragraphs of Early life and mathematical career
  • The last three paragraphs of same
  • Several paragraphs of the Bombings section
  • Several paragraphs of the Arrest and court proceedings
  • The entire Popular culture references section

As well, the items that ARE referenced show an inconsitency in format. There should be some minimum bibliographical information in each reference, ideally this should be:

  • Name of author of reference (if availible)
  • Title of reference
  • Title of larger work reference is part of (if so)
  • Publication information (especially for print media)
  • Date of access (for online media)

At WP:CITET you can find templates that can help organize this information. These templates are not required, but they can save you a bit of work and help keep all of the information organized. Also see WP:CITE and WP:ATT for more information about citing sources. If these problems can be fixed, please feel free to renominate again! Good luck and happy editing! --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../t/h/e/Talk%7ETheodore_Kaczynski_3292.html"