Talk:Thematic motifs of the Matrix series

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Would it be possible to expand on the "magic mirror" motif? Clearly Grant Morrison did not create the concept, as it can be traced back to authors as diverse as Kurt Vonnegut Jr. (in Breakfast of Champions) and Lewis Carroll (in Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There), and to credit only The Invisibles as inpsiration is misleading. I think the motif is of such relevance, historically and thematically, it deserves more space on its own. Artemisstrong 21:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation and OR tags

I've added an original research tag today on top of the citation tag Sockatume added a couple weeks ago. As near as I can tell, this article is nearly an exact definition of original research and in it's current form should either have about 90% of the content deleted, or else scrap the entire thing.

Specifically the entire Literature section should be deleted as original research. It reads like a someone's paper on themes of the film for "American Cinema 201" or some such. I looked through the "citations" of this section.

• The one in the Invisibles section only cites Morrison's opinion of similarities, not that what they are or whether they influenced The Matrix, making everything after that citation presumably the opinion of the original wikipedia editor.
• The Lewis Carroll section is completely uncited, although technically I don't think there's any question of what the "follow the white rabbit" quote from the movie was from. What it MEANS is of course entirely speculation, so original research, and all the other bullet points below that quote are of course equally speculative.
• I particularly like the two citations in the Wagner's Parsifal section. One is regarding an influence on Wagner (not The Matrix) and the other is to SF fan site (not a reliable source).

For the other sections:

• The "Cinematic" section is a gray area as some of those citations appear real at first glance and other assertions might actually be verifiable (e.g. that Dark City sets were used).
• The "Clothing" and "Ethnicity" sections should be deleted. No source, and all appears to be completely first hand speculation.
• "Philosophy" appears to be mostly unciteable first hand analysis (e.g. comparing the Oracle to the Oracle at Delphi), although the comment is made "There have been several books and websites written about the philosophy of The Matrix". If so, cite them, more particularly the books since websites might fail reliability tests. The one citation of the last paragraph looks vaguely promising.
• The section on "Marxism" looks good actually. Good citations, and opens with a specific book on the subject.
• "Science" is original research. Even if it seems self-apparently poor science, find a reputable source that goes into detail about this. The film's creators possibly couldn't have cared less about the science, or maybe had other ideas. Who knows? At any rate neither I nor the editor who did this section do.

Apologies for the length of this, but I was considering deleting most of the above outright, but wanted to give the article creators the option of looking for verifiable citations for any or all of the above. It is of course possible there is an interview with the Wachowski brothers out there in which they directly state "hey, we considered X as a thematic motif". However, the way this article reads now my suspicion is that most of it is the opinion of the original editor, or at any rate that it must be treated so unless verified. 0-Markeer 2:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree. Vast sections of this article can be trimmed away (including, as you suggested, the specific similarites between The Invisibles and The Matrix). After that, the article would probably be short enough to re-incorporate its content into The Matrix series, which is where it used to be.

> It is of course possible there is an interview with the Wachowski brothers out there in which they directly state "hey, we considered X as a thematic motif".

Unfortunately, their reluctance to do interviews makes that unlikely. Very different from, for example, George Lucas's constant references to The Hero with a Thousand Faces. :) The only one I can remember is the sequence in The Matrix Revisited in which the explain their love of sci fi and "Japanimation". There is, however, a "Philosphy" section on the official Matrix website, which may be useful. (I've never read through it, though, as I have no interest in the subject.) --Nick R^Talk 19:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all the above. I wrote the Lewis Carroll piece with the thought that the "Alice in Wonderland" references throughout the Matrix movies and animation were plain enough not to require citation. I see now that I was wrong, and that those allusions can not be proven as fact beyond my own sense of them. What I was trying to show was direct references, but I think most of my examples required to much extrapolation on my part. The only Carroll allusions in the Matrix works that are undeniable would have to be the "follow the white rabbit" bit and the "White/Red Queen" references in the "Detective Story" short from the Animatrix.-Artemisstrong

I have removed all of the Carroll section due to a lack of citable references.-Artemisstrong