Talk:The empire on which the sun never sets

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I realise it's important to include many references in an encyclopedia. However, on the basis that an equal-length background for the other (arguably more important) references is absent, I think the horribly inaccurate quotation (no wonder they're so confused) ought to be trimmed to more moderate proportions. Wiki-Ed 12:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeh, it was me who fiound that quotation, but I'm not attached to it. You are welcome to delete the first two sentences, or replace it completely if you know a better quote. Though as you say, balancing it with more would be better than replacing it. --Doric Loon 18:36, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. To be honest it's just something that irritates me and make me feel like petulantly editing it eg: (I can't edit the first section... it has too many historical errors to make any sense).

[edit] Amusing variants

These have been removed from the article, presumably because they seemed trivial. The first one is just fun, but the second was intended to have political comment, so perhaps I should save them here for anyone interested.

• From a student's exam paper: "The sun never sets on the British Empire because the British Empire is in the east and the sun sets in the west."
• A remark by Princeton professor Duncan Spaeth: "I know why the sun never sets on the British Empire: God wouldn't trust an Englishman in the dark."

--Doric Loon 10:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• • The second one should be restored to the article. Unlike the first one (which is merely a stunningly dumb statement, with zero value beyond entertainment), the second one is a common and well known rejoinder and quick criticism of British foreign policy. For the same reasons that articles about humans must include relevant criticism of that human, articles about phrases should include criticisms of that phrase. --M@rēino 20:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, no real objection there. What does concern me, though, is that we have two different ascriptions: your source relates it to Colvin R. de Silva, but the other source (which was also taken off the internet) relates it to a much older American source. Unless this can be clarified, possibly the name needs to be suppressed; it is possible that Colvin R. de Silva just reused a smart phrase coined by someone earlier; possibly Duncan Spaeth did too. What I don't quite understand is why you deleted a sentence in order to add this new one. You have left the impression that this phrase was a response to Shaftsbury. Perhaps it ought to be further down. --Doric Loon 11:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish

Hold on: looking at the last comment in the edit summary about what sounds best in Spanish leaves me worried. Did you folks just translate that phrase into Spanish? That is not legitimate. You have to quote the actual form used historically, or else not give Spanish at all! --Doric Loon 12:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American empire

I suppose Doric Loon is right that my paragraphy on how the sun sets on America is irrelevant to the article. By that same argument, the preceding paragraph would also be considered irrelevant. The article is of the phrase, not of empires. Besides not being properly referenced, the remarks are also rather redundant. In the current global economy, plenty of countries can claim that the sun never sets on "properties owned by their government or citizens" or their military bases. The USA retains little jurisdiction over these areas and they can hardly be considered part of an American empire. If it is a cultural empire we are talking about, then the use of this geographical phrase is completely irrelevant. It is best we keep this article relevant to the historical usage of the phrase, perhaps with interesting information on countries on whose sovereign territory the sun does not set. Kraikk 12:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree. Empires are about sovereign territory (at least that's what various empire pages on Wikipedia describe) and not "empires of the mind". However, the problem is that the article that has been quoted is trying to make use of the phrase in a different way and that's why it has been included. Wiki-Ed 13:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think we want to avoid any evaluation of the American presence around the world - there are other articles, like American Empire which can discuss that. As far as this article is concerned, the focus should really be on Spain and Britain, but with a pointer to the fact that this politically potent language has been taken into American usage too. Plenty of other countries MIGHT be able to claim it, but all that is relevant for this article is who has actually done so. And not whether they were right, or in what sense. I realise that is defining the scope of the article very narrowly, but I suspect if you follow those related topics further you will just be duplicating what other articles do better. (If we WERE to pursue this, my own opinion would be that American is not an empire, but its role in the world has a lot more similarities to that of the former British Empire than most Americans would feel comfortable with. But you see my point - that's controversial stuff, not material we can touch on briefly, and there is an article already which gives a carefully balanced account of all of this.) --Doric Loon 21:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. I suggest removing the entire paragraph on the America. Whether it is an empire is thoroughly discussed elsewhere. Its relevance to "the sun does not set" is confined to one minor reference with a lot of caveats in a casual history that is neither impressive nor relevant. Leave American hegemony to that article, and we should confine this article to historically notable references to this phrase. Kraikk 15:30 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted your change, because I don't think it can stand just like that, but that doesn't mean I am entirely against it. I do think the transference of politically loaded language is highly significant, so I wouldn't want to leave America out of it; after all, it belongs in the context of other transfers (pax Americana etc). The transference of the language is independent of the question of whether America is imperialist (many who talk about pax Americana do so without an empire concept in mind), so I would resist raising that at all. I would be happy to see the American paragraph shortened, but if we take the quote out of the text, it needs to become a reference. If you REALLY want to make the blindingly obvious comment that the quote can only apply to American sphere of influence and not to American sovereign territory then OK, but I think that is almost insulting the readers' intelligence. --Doric Loon 16:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

However I accept your criticism that this whole thing is based on one quote of questionable importance. Can we agree, though, that if we can find significant other examples, then the American connection should stay? For starters I would point to the book by Joseph Gerson, The Sun Never Sets: Confronting the Network of Foreign U.S. Military Bases, and any number of reviews and discussions of it which can be found easily by googling. I have also read the phrase in literature hostile to America (Arab journalism) or critical of American policies (liberal American journalism) and I think I remember having heard it used proudly by a militaristic right-wing American speaker, but we will have to do some work to get verifiable quotes. But meanwhile, Grearson and the Reader's Companion can stand as examples of use by people whose views on American power are negatively and positive respectively; that's enough to establish that both sides are using this. --Doric Loon 17:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a reference to an American company, a publishing house, "upon whose world-wide offices the sun never sets". And here's another - Dow chemicals. And here's a discussion of political writings from way back in the 1890s which "boasted" that "the sun never sets on Uncle Sam". --Doric Loon 17:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's what might be thought of as a transitional usage refering to both UK and US, from 1852! "To Britain and America God has granted the possession of the new world; and because the sun never sets upon our religion, our language and our arts..." --Doric Loon 17:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, although perhaps not as clearly as I could have done, it should stay. However much the use of the phrase may offend various sensibilities, it should be noted (here in this article) that it is used in this way. I think the references Doric Loon has come up with are sufficient support for this. Wiki-Ed 11:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the wealth of references you have provided perhaps now the reference to the Reader's Companion within the article becomes rather limited and less useful. My suggestion now is that these references be summarised to show that there is notable usage of the phrase. Reading the paragraph again, it may appear that the Reader's Companion is the main or only proponent of such usage. I suggest moving the references including that to the Reader's Companion to the bibliography and keeping the article more general. If there is no objection I will give it a shot when I find the time. Kraikk 14:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Go for it! --Doric Loon 18:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)