Talk:The Yeomen of the Guard
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[edit] Uncertainties as to details
If anyone can correct any mistakes or confirm where I was right, I'd be most grateful. In particular:
- I'm not absolutely certain about the list of Gilbert's top three, though I'm fairly sure.
- Voice parts:
- I'm not sure whether Wilfred and the Lieutenant are basses or bass-baritones.
- I'm not sure whether the Second Yeoman is a baritone, bass-baritone or bass.
- My source for the Third and Fourth Yeomen's voice parts may be wrong.
- I question the classification of Meryll as a bass rather than a baritone; as far as I can tell without a vocal score to hand he has no notes below his bottom Gs in "Strange adventure" and he has a top F in "A laughing boy". This gives him precisely the same range as Ko-Ko in The Mikado, who is quite definitely a baritone, and indeed he has top Fs only if singing with the tenors in the Finale.
- The range for Sgt. Meryll can be considered either baritone or bass. Choosing bass implies a preference for timbre. The original actor, Richard Temple, appears to have had quite a diverse singing range, also playing a such a wide variety of characters as Dick Deadeye, Pirate King, the Colonel, Arac, the Mikado, Sir Roderick Murgatroyd, and most curiously, Strephon (the male romantic lead) in Iolanthe, a role often played by tenors. And so his roles, depending on the show, are frequently assigned to a particular voice part, but not always the same one. Due to the more serious nature of work and the character in particular, choosing a singer with a bass timbre who can sing the full range is probably the ideal casting. I must also note that "A laughing boy" is almost always cut, a tradition that started with Gilbert. The general consensus is that unlike the other almost always cut song, Wilfred's "When Jealous Torments Rack My Soul", "A Laughing Boy But Yesterday" does not perform any real character development or advance the plot in any way. Anivron 06:45, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- Since, as you say, it is a matter of personal preference (for my part I don't think a heavily 'dark' basso profondo-type voice does Meryll, or indeed any other G&S character, any favours, just as Fairfax, Nanki-Poo or Tolloller shouldn't [and are most unlikely to] be played by one of the Three Tenors, or heavy-duty operatic altos ruin such characters as Dame Carruthers and Lady Sophy [especially the latter-O!] on older D'Oyly Carte recordings), I've turned him into a bass-baritone. Incidentally, I think it's a shame that "A Laughing Boy" is generally cut; it does nothing for character or plot, but neither do some of the best (e.g. I am a Pirate King, A Policeman's Lot, This Helmet I Suppose, the Nightmare Song, So Please You Sir We Much Regret, I Am So Proud, The Flowers that Bloom in the Spring and the Matter Song), and it is only the presence of the brilliant "A Private Buffoon", "When Our Gallant Norman Foes" and (sometimes) "When Jealous Torments" that prevent me from calling "A Laughing Boy" one of the best solos in "Yeomen". Oh, and woe betide any plonker who casts a tenor as Strephon.
- The information on Third and Fourth Yeomen's vocal ranges is correct - they repeat lines given to First and Second Yeomen respectively, and so must be classified the same. However, cutting the Fourth Yeoman also involves a tiny change later, which I have clarified in the notes: to Whit, he came back on with Fairfax at "My lords, my lords, I know not how to tell the news I bear", joined in the unison for the three [now four] thereafter, and has eight harmony notes at "We hunted low" and "We hunted there" that make the soloists' version have the same vocal harmonies as the chorus repeat. Also, I added in a note about the cut lines for Elsie and Point at "All frenzied, frenzied with despair" - Not a cut made by Gilbert, but very, very common since the D'Oyly Carte instituted it.Adam Cuerden 05:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and made Meryll a bass-baritone, the 2nd Yeoman a baritone, and the 4th Yeoman a bass, which I believe corresponds to modern usage. Marc Shepherd 19:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with this. Meryll needs the dark sound of a bass baritone, and its tessitura is lower than the more lyric baritone roles, like Corcoran, Grosvenor, etc. But it is not really a bass role and has no particularly low notes. 2nd Yeoman has a sustained F in his solo, so he is definitely a baritone. Indeed, many amateur companies split the 2nd Yeoman's solo in #2 between 2nd Yeoman for the first, lower part, and the 1st Yeoman for the second part starting with "...but our year is not so spent...." This makes it easier for more amateur male singers to sing the 2nd Yeoman and provides the opportunity to make the 1st and 2nd Yeoman parts of equal size if either of these factors is preferable given the talent available to, and politics of, any particular amateur group. The 4th Yeoman is rarely used, but when he is, he could be either a baritone, a bass baritone or a bass. It really doesn't matter, matter, matter. --Ssilvers 22:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and made Meryll a bass-baritone, the 2nd Yeoman a baritone, and the 4th Yeoman a bass, which I believe corresponds to modern usage. Marc Shepherd 19:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- The information on Third and Fourth Yeomen's vocal ranges is correct - they repeat lines given to First and Second Yeomen respectively, and so must be classified the same. However, cutting the Fourth Yeoman also involves a tiny change later, which I have clarified in the notes: to Whit, he came back on with Fairfax at "My lords, my lords, I know not how to tell the news I bear", joined in the unison for the three [now four] thereafter, and has eight harmony notes at "We hunted low" and "We hunted there" that make the soloists' version have the same vocal harmonies as the chorus repeat. Also, I added in a note about the cut lines for Elsie and Point at "All frenzied, frenzied with despair" - Not a cut made by Gilbert, but very, very common since the D'Oyly Carte instituted it.Adam Cuerden 05:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Since, as you say, it is a matter of personal preference (for my part I don't think a heavily 'dark' basso profondo-type voice does Meryll, or indeed any other G&S character, any favours, just as Fairfax, Nanki-Poo or Tolloller shouldn't [and are most unlikely to] be played by one of the Three Tenors, or heavy-duty operatic altos ruin such characters as Dame Carruthers and Lady Sophy [especially the latter-O!] on older D'Oyly Carte recordings), I've turned him into a bass-baritone. Incidentally, I think it's a shame that "A Laughing Boy" is generally cut; it does nothing for character or plot, but neither do some of the best (e.g. I am a Pirate King, A Policeman's Lot, This Helmet I Suppose, the Nightmare Song, So Please You Sir We Much Regret, I Am So Proud, The Flowers that Bloom in the Spring and the Matter Song), and it is only the presence of the brilliant "A Private Buffoon", "When Our Gallant Norman Foes" and (sometimes) "When Jealous Torments" that prevent me from calling "A Laughing Boy" one of the best solos in "Yeomen". Oh, and woe betide any plonker who casts a tenor as Strephon.
- The range for Sgt. Meryll can be considered either baritone or bass. Choosing bass implies a preference for timbre. The original actor, Richard Temple, appears to have had quite a diverse singing range, also playing a such a wide variety of characters as Dick Deadeye, Pirate King, the Colonel, Arac, the Mikado, Sir Roderick Murgatroyd, and most curiously, Strephon (the male romantic lead) in Iolanthe, a role often played by tenors. And so his roles, depending on the show, are frequently assigned to a particular voice part, but not always the same one. Due to the more serious nature of work and the character in particular, choosing a singer with a bass timbre who can sing the full range is probably the ideal casting. I must also note that "A laughing boy" is almost always cut, a tradition that started with Gilbert. The general consensus is that unlike the other almost always cut song, Wilfred's "When Jealous Torments Rack My Soul", "A Laughing Boy But Yesterday" does not perform any real character development or advance the plot in any way. Anivron 06:45, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- I question the classification of Meryll as a bass rather than a baritone; as far as I can tell without a vocal score to hand he has no notes below his bottom Gs in "Strange adventure" and he has a top F in "A laughing boy". This gives him precisely the same range as Ko-Ko in The Mikado, who is quite definitely a baritone, and indeed he has top Fs only if singing with the tenors in the Finale.
[edit] Eh?
I am curious as to what on Earth was the point of replacing "synopsis" with "plot".
- It's now "Synopsis" again, consistent with most of the other opera pages. Marc Shepherd 14:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Gilbert/Sullivan's Favourite?
The text currently says: "It is thought, however, to have been Sullivan's favourite (for much the same reason) and Gilbert listed it among his top three, along with Ruddigore and Utopia Limited..."
We should find a specific source, rather than just saying "It is thought...."
Similarly, where's the source for Gilbert ranking Yeomen alongside Ruddigore and Utopia? Marc Shepherd 19:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- I've removed the paragraph that said the following:
-
- Yeomen remains frequently played, though its popularity lags somewhat behind H.M.S. Pinafore, The Pirates of Penzance and The Mikado, perhaps because it is not as light-hearted, or topsy-turvy, as the other Savoy Operas. It is thought, however, to have been Sullivan's favourite (for much the same reason) and Gilbert listed it among his top three, along with Ruddigore and Utopia Limited, and commented shortly before the opening of their next piece, The Gondoliers (which pre-dated Utopia but not Ruddigore), "I thought The Yeomen of the Guard the best thing we had done, but I am told that the public like the topsy-turvy best, so this time they are going to get it."
- No one was able to offer a source that Yeomen was Sullivan's favourite (plausible though that is), and I've never seen any source that Gilbert's top three were Yeomen, Ruddigore, and Utopia.
- It is true that Yeomen's popularity lags behind that of Pinafore, Pirates, and The Mikado, but its serious subject can't be the reason, since there are ten other (non-serious) G&S operas that are also less popular than Pinafore, Pirates, or Mikado. Marc Shepherd 14:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Size of orchestra
A prior editor put the following paragraph in the "Cut music" section:
- A musical note: Yeomen was the first to use Sullivan's larger orchestra: including 2nd bassoon, and 3rd trombone. Prior to this opera, there was only one bassoon and two trombones - making up the standard vaudeville pit orchestra. This larger orchestra Sullivan had been trying to achieve seemingly from the time of Mikado, as there is reference to "2nd trombone in the village band", a none too subtle dig at Sullivan from the pen of Gilbert. Most of Sullivan's subsequent operas, including those not composed with Gilbert as libretist, use this larger orchestra.
I moved a revised version of the comment to the front of the article, as it has nothing to do with cut music.
In addition, I know of no evidence that the reference to a "second trombone" in The Mikado had anything to do with Sullivan's desire to increase the size of the pit band. All of the G&S operas starting from The Sorcerer already had two trombones to begin with. Had Nanki-Poo's disguise been that of a second bassoon or a third trombone, it might make more sense.
In The Complete Annotated Gilbert & Sullivan, Ian Bradley says:
- It has been suggested that Gilbert was poking a little gentle fun at his collaborator here. Most theatre orchestras had only one trombone, and Sullivan was always grumbling about the effects of this restriction on his composing. He finally won a second trombone from Richard D'Oyly Carte for The Yeomen of the Guard. (Bradley 1996, p. 584).
But this is obviously incorrect, since there were two trombones in the Savoy Operas all along, and it was a third trombone that he finally got for Yeomen. Marc Shepherd 01:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Authorship of overtures
A prior edit said:
- The Overture is one of the few composed entirely by Sullivan himself....
Sullivan himself wrote the overtures to The Sapphire Necklace, Cox and Box, Thespis, The Sorcerer (original version), Iolanthe, Princess Ida, The Yeomen of the Guard, The Gondoliers, Utopia Limited, and The Grand Duke. (A number of the 1890s operas didn't have fully separate overtures, but whatever "introduction" they had, Sullivan wrote.) Some of these overtures were insubstantial pieces, but it doesn't change the fact that Sullivan prepared them himself. The old idea that Sullivan rarely composed his own overtures just isn't true. Marc Shepherd 13:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dividing up the Finales
In line with the principle agreed upon for H.M.S. Pinafore, I have listed major sections of the Finales of both acts (And a couple minor, less contentious tweaks to the Act II list). Unfortunately, this is kind of difficult with Yeomen, so my selection of headings is questionable. Is it worth doing this for Yeomen, and if it is, can a better selection be made? Adam Cuerden 11:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- It looks pretty good to me, but please use sub-bullets (as I've done in the revision), as it's far easier to read that way. Marc Shepherd 13:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- Started doing so! Adam Cuerden 20:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sources of original material
I think it's a lot more useful to talk about sources that people really use. Performing groups that put on Yeomen aren't going to the Royal College of Music or the New York Public Library for music. They are relying on editions and rental parts that are already available. Marc Shepherd 21:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that each articl note what editions and rental parts are available? I don't think the opera articles or musicals articles generally do this. --Ssilvers 22:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- It appeared to me that the purpose of the section was to explain where people need to go to get the material, much like the Ruddigore article explains that the deleted music is published in the Oxford University Press edition. That article does not say that Sullivan's autograph score is in the British Library, for while that is true, that's not what the reader is probably looking for. Nobody is going to say, "We're doing Yeomen this year; I'll just pop over to the Royal College of Music to copy out the music." I think this was confirmed by a later message I received from Adam, in which he noted that Chris Browne sells copies of those songs for something like £8.00. That's what people are looking for. Marc Shepherd 02:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It is annoying to feel that one isn't equal to the intellectual pressure of the conversation. You have deleted the section regarding sources, which is fine with me. I thought that, with respect to Ruddigore, we mention the OUP edition because it changed the landscape on what versions people are actually using, rather than as information to the reader on "how to get G&S materials". So, my question is, are we supposed to have a section in each opera article on how to get the P/V scores, full scores and/or band parts? I thought the answer was "no", because it wasn't really encyclopedic info. People interested in sourcing G&S materials probably ought to go to the G&S archive link at the bottom of each article, right? --Ssilvers 03:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- I think that it is useful for each of the articles to explain the publication status of the work, and where there is more than one version available, to explain the differences. As long as the usual rules are adhered to (NPOV, verifiable, NOR), this would be useful information. Marc Shepherd 12:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- It seems useful to me, however, to note where the original material for each opera resides, as it is the source of all others. Adam Cuerden 11:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A laughing boy
I am in the process of completing a new Vocal Score of this (and will do one for When Jealous Torments, but the one available on the Archive is much more accurate than the ALB one, and thus isn't quite as important. However, would an image/pdf be a useful addition *to the article itself*, or should it be merely linked? Adam Cuerden 11:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have a feeling that linking is more suitable.
- As a general matter, because we are G&S fans, the things we consider important are different than what the average reader would think. This article has no images in it at all. Should the first image added be the score of "A laughing boy," a song usually cut? That wouldn't be my priority.
- I have a similar feeling about noting the archival location of historical artifacts, such as Sullivan's autograph. Obviously, on one level one cannot fault the inclusion of truthful, verifiable information. But when that information is included, and other far-more-useful information to the general reader is omitted, the article may be confusing, or may be perceived to lack the desired balance. Marc Shepherd 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with what Marc says. --Ssilvers 13:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Prenom Colonel
Did Fairfax have a given name? (Don't tell me, "It's bloody Colonel!") Major Major 09:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- The libretto refers to him only as Fairfax or Col. Fairfax. No first name is mentioned. -- Ssilvers 04:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Parallel
Far too speculative for the article, of course, but I have just noticed that the operetta has a parallel with Sense and Sensibility -- probably an unintentional one -- in that both works end up with the "romantic" heroine marrying for pragmatic reasons while the "pragmatic" heroine marries for romantic reasons. Of course the dictates of "topsy-turvydom", make that quite likely even in the absence of any influence from Austen to Gilbert but it still seems curious to me. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Comic Opera?
I found this article under Category:Comic_operas in the Opera Wikipedia page. Is this intentional? Is Yeomen considered a comic opera in any level? Was it so named by librettist and composer? -- Zelani 13:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- It was so named, as were their other works. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Right, G&S considered it a comic opera, although it is darker than their frothiest pieces. Still, the dialogue is laced with many comic touches, there is a case of mistaken identity, comic schemes go awry and most everyone is engaged in the end.
