Talk:The William Penn Society

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	The William Penn Society is part of the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Greek Life on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies, and their members. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, visit the project page, where you can join the project, and/or contribute to the discussion.
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This discussion has been called to order regarding the vandalism of this entry by user: Carlton

Carlton claims this author is "pimping" un-notable alumni of the William Penn Society, however the Society has recognized the contribution of the so-called "un-notable" alumni by official resolution upon finding out about this situation.

Is this official resolution published on the web?

Are any of the "notable alumni" notable enough to have works published about them? Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 15:05, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Since User: Carlton has no known knowledge and/or expertise on Whittier College or The William Penn Society I hereby ask for a vote to call for the censure and suspention of Carlton's editing of this entry.

Sorry but expert knowlege is not considered particlualy desirable here. Information has to be verifyable. This means that there have to be other sources of the info apart fr5om an insiders knowlege. You cannot demand that Carton stops editing this article. I can however demand that both of you act in a more civil manner. Personal attacks are not allowed. Calling each other names is childish to say the least. Let's all behave nicely please. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 15:05, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn’t say that what Calton is doing is vandalism. If so Choster would also be labeled a “vandal” since the user did an extensive re-write on the article. Although I understand your concern in wanting members of The William Penn Society recognized I agree with both Calton and Choster. It does not matter whether or not your organization believes that they are notable but whether or not people who have never heard of your organization believe they are notable. This happens all the time. The Votes for deletion pages are riddled with articles about people who have great importance to some people but not the consensus of majority of the people. The majority of pages such as these are subsequently deleted.(Although in your case it’s only a section and not the entire article.) So although you may believe, for example, that Keristopher Seriyani, Fmr. Whittier College Associated Students President is a notable person, the vast majority of those who reference this encylopedia don’t. Keep in mind that an encyclopedia has to provide information as if the person reading it is new to the subject. Although it’s nice to have expert knowledge on a particular subject, info must be verified. That’s what makes wiki work; anyone can contribute as long as what they’re contributing is verifiable and not point of view. --Dysepsion 17:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

External view via Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society and law:

I agree with Theresa Knott and Dysepsion: notability on Wikipedia is defined by verifiable external notability, not self-nominated notability.

It's a common, and fallacious, argument that people who aren't "in the know" are unqualified to edit articles. Outsiders are perfectly capable of spotting problems such as bias, vanity articles, lack of independent verification for statements, and lack of external notability.

Wikipedia takes a dim view of anyone asserting unique rights to control article content: see the official guideline Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. Tearlach 13:57, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I would have to agree with Tearlach here, a person who is already notable and also a member of the Society should be listed, but I would say it is the rare occasion that a person be notable ONLY for being in any society being notable enough to qualify. Mbisanz 23:58, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

1 Teachings of William Penn?
2 Sources
3 Secret Society
4 Vandalism, Anatomical

[edit] Teachings of William Penn?

"Based on the teachings of William Penn, the Society has had a long and diverse history." Excuse me, but which teachings of Penn? The sentence makes it sound as if the Society were some sort of Society of Friends religious order. Assuming that members of the William Penn Society are not the Quaker Jesuits, just what "teachings of William Penn" is the article referring to? Benami 03:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The only source to this article is the society's own homepage. Could not someone add some more sources? --Francisco Valverde 19:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secret Society

How is The William Penn Society a "secret society". In the article it states that: "In contrast to many student secret societies, The William Penn Society does not tap a designated number of new members. Instead, a bid procedure is followed, with New Member Education occurring annually." One of the characteristics of a secret society is that they do tap members. There are no recruitment events etc. and technically they would never say they have a "New Member Education". What this article is describing is nothing more than what the average fraternity at any campus does. Secret rituals are incorporated in almost any fraternity but the fact that ritual is kept secret doesn't necessarily make this organization a "secret society". Looking through the website I see this as nothing more than a local fraternity rather than "secret society". Since when do secret societies publish member rosters, post event pictures let alone have third party members of sororities be affiliated with it? The reason why I bring this up is because I've twiced removed this organization from the List of collegiate secret societies --† Ðy§ep§ion † ^{Speak your mind} 04:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)