Talk:The Virgin Mary

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Regarding these sentences:

According to some traditions, she died at an advanced age, surrounded by the apostles. Catholic teaching, however, is that she was bodily assumed into Heaven between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension, either from Jerusalem or Ephesus.

The first sentence is based on the Eastern Orthodox feast the Dormition of the Theotokos. The second suggests that the Roman Catholic tradition is different, but I think they are the same. The Eastern Orthodox also teaches her bodily assumption, but that the assumption happened shortly after she died a normal human death. Is the Catholic teaching that she was assumed bodily before death, like Elijah, or that she died and was then assumed bodily into Heaven? If the latter, this could probably be reworded slightly, possibly by introducing both sentences with "According to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition", since the tradition arose long before the schism and is still shared by both branches. May as well make the most of what the two have in common. --Wesley

I'd always assumed it was like Elijah, with her still breathing as she went, but I see that the encyclical doesn't specify -- so I dodged the question the same way the Pius did, by not mentioning her death one way or the other. What do you think of my rewrite? --the Epopt
When in doubt, dodging is good! I do think it's an improvement. From the Eastern Orthodox POV, it would be important to mention that she died first. If Catholics agree on that point, perhaps it could read:
According to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition, between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension, in either Jerusalem or Ephesus, while surrounded by the apostles, she died, and was bodily assumed into Heaven shortly thereafter.
In Eastern Orthodox theology, Mary serves as a prototype Christian. As such, all Orthodox Christians seek to die in the midst of the Church as she did, and to be raised to new life in Christ as she was. So theologically, her natural death is almost as important as her assumption into heaven. The story I heard was that one of the apostles (Thomas??) arrived too late to be at her side before she died, and asked to venerate her body. When they opened her tomb, it was empty, leading to the tradition of her bodily assumption. Don't mean to be too nitpicky though; I think I'd rather preserve a sense of agreement on the point than say something like "Catholics say A and Orthodox say B" on this subject. --Wesley
The Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm specifically says official Catholic belief is that Mary died and was assumed (perhaps as much as 40 days later.) But since she was free of original sin and not subject to death as a penalty, she died of love. --rmhermen
Harmony on such an important and cherished religious figure as Mary is a desirable goal. Ed Poor
rmhermen, thanks for the research. Based on the link you provided and a related Catholic Encyclopedia article, I'm going to modify the article to reflect joint Catholic and Orthodox belief in both her death while surrounded by the apostles, and her subsequent assumption. And Ed, I quite agree. :-) Wesley

Should we mention the term Magnificat as in "my soul magnifies the Lord" which either Mary or Elizabeth said to the other upon their first meeting (regarding the impending miraculous birth)? --Ed Poor


Sure. In fact, since it's not too long, it might be worth including the full text of that prayer from the Gospel of Luke. It was said by Mary, I think in response to Elizabeth's greeting. The article already alludes to it, so it might be best to insert mention of it there. The term "Magnificat" comes from the first word of the prayer as found in the Latin Vulgate. Wesley

I don't mean to step on any toes, but I question the propriety of the title, which seems to me to reflect a Roman Catholic bias. (And I mean that in the nicest possible way, you understand.) There are a lot of Christians who do not believe in the virgin birth, before you get to the Moslems who venerate Jesus, before you get to the people of all the other faiths. Would it not be better to call this article, "Mary, the mother of Jesus" to stick to what is factual and not a matter of faith? -- isis

I suppose it does reflect some bias towards Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and much of Protestantism. Still, it's also the name by which she is most commonly known. Seems a bit like the Jesus Christ article, which carries the title because that's how he's known, and not because there is universal agreement that Jesus is the christ or messiah. Would it be acceptable to leave the article's title, but expand the section describing various groups' beliefs concerning her virginity? Wesley

Most commonly known in what circles, please? I can't speak for the millions of other folks in the world who never refer to her that way (BTW the Bible doesn't, either), but I'd still find it offensive in what is supposed to be a secular reference book. -- isis

I don't think we claim Wikipedia is a secular reference book, just a NPOV one. The word "secular" often carries the subtext of "anti-religious". What branches of Christianity don't beleive Mary was a virgin so we can add it to the article. I wouldn't mind a change of name to "Mary, the mother of Jesus", because the present title sounds Catholic to me. Not sure what the Orthodox use. Rmhermen 08:29 Aug 19, 2002 (PDT)

Sorry, I meant "secular" in the sense of "non-religious," not "anti-religious." (The subject is touchy enough without my being more offensive by using pejorative terms.) Many Protestants, even those who believe in the virgin birth because the Bible says so, believe Mary stopped being a virgin by about nine months before her second child was born. That's why "BVM" has always been a Catholic (or high church) term. -- isis

"Virgin Mary" was always among the Christian terms used by all Christians prior to the Reformation; it's not just a "Catholic" term. I'm not sure when it began to fall out of use among some protestants. It's also easier to say. But history and theology aside, if it would be more generally acceptable and neutral to move the article title to 'Mary mother of Jesus', that's fine. I would at least like to have the Virgin Mary redirect to that page, if only to preserve existing links. But would moving it there be acceptable to all, or would some still argue that that title implies that there really was an historical figure named Jesus who had a mother named Mary? There are a few scholars who would dispute that history as well. Need we change it to 'Mary the alleged mother of the alleged Jesus' instead?

Before the Reformation, all Christians were Catholics -- that's why it's called the "Protestant Reformation." Yes, of course there need to be redirects from "Virgin Mary," because some people will want to look up that term. I don't see how anyone who believes Jesus was an actual person can quibble if we say his mother's name was Mary, because she had to have a name, and they can't prove it wasn't that. I don't see why anyone who thinks Jesus never existed can quibble, because then it's the same as if we say Hera was the mother of Ares, isn't it? -- isis

No, prior to the Reformation, there had already been a Great Schism between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Before that schism, there were a couple of smaller schisms, including the Arians and the Coptics. Some protestants believe that there was a small group of Christians who held their protestant beliefs during the entire time of Christianity, but that these were few and persecuted. Some Baptists and Mennonites espouse this view, for instance. But in one sense, many Protestants can also be called catholics if they believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church", to use the words of the Nicene Creed.
But you're right, the new name will probably be much more broadly acceptable. If no one else objects, go for it, as long there's a redirect left. Wesley

May I suggest that the page be clearly organized to begin with what everyone (at least, all Christians, but preferably everyone else who accepts the historical existance of this woman) agrees is true about Mary -- even if it is a short paragraph saying that she married Joseph and had a son; then a section on what all Christians believe; then sections on what different groups of Christians, or Churches, believe, including how they refer to Mary? Just an idea, Slrubenstein

Wesley: You say tomato, I say potato -- or something like that. What you call "Orthodox" I call "Eastern Catholic," and those folks that call themselves "Anglicans" I call "English Catholics." Anyhow, did your message mean you want me to change it? I was sort of hoping somebody else would, because I haven't learned to do a redirect yet. (I needed to do one earlier today and couldn't.) So if you want me to do it, please tell me how (or, please tell me how anyhow, because I need to learn). -- isis

Eastern Catholics are actually a different group of people from Eastern Orthodox. They look like Eastern Orthodox, and use many of the same prayers and liturgies, but they are still in communion with and subject to the Pope of Rome. The Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with the Pope of Rome, but are either directly or indirectly in communion with at least one of the other four original patriarchs, of Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople and Alexandria. There are actually some profound theological and practical differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. (speaking as an Eastern Orthodox convert, former Protestant) Wesley
As for doing a redirect, you just make the only text of the article
#REDIRECT other article
For an example, go to Christian and you'll be redirected to Christianity. On that page, it will say near the top "Redirected from Christian". Click on the "Christian" link in that phrase, then "edit" the text of that entry to see how it was done.
If you really want to do this, that's ok. What did you think of slrubenstein's proposal to reorganize the page? Wesley

I think anyone who makes a really good suggestion like that should do it, and the rest of us should thank them. Why, what do you think about it? -- isis

<grin> much like you, I think it's a great idea that I unfortunately don't have time to implement today.

What "evidence" is there that the Septuagint was translated from a missing text, and what serious biblical scholars actually believe this?

I believe it's based on textual criticism, comparing the Septuagint texts, Masoretic texts, and the Samaritan texts. I'm not sure, but I think some of the Dead Sea scrolls also suggest the existence of another text, since in some places they appear to agree more closely with the Septuagint than with the Masoretic, while in others they follow the MT more closely. I'll have to hunt for the sources. Would you care to cite your own scholars as well? Wesley
128.32.172.179 -- regarding your addition and many biblical scholars -- how is that statement not redundant? Do you mean to imply that Jews are not biblical scholars? That neither Jews nor Christians are biblical scholars? If the particular biblical scholars you're alluding to are in fact neither Jews nor Christians, it would be worth noting that, and perhaps what religion, school of thought or hermeneutical method they employ.
What do you say we discuss changes here so we can arrive at text acceptable to all concerned, that is from a NPOV and conforms in other ways to generally accepted Wikipedia guidelines, instead of wasting time in edit wars. I would also be delighted to address you by name rather than by IP address. Wesley

Question about "The establishment of this dogma as "necessary to salvation" is widely taken to be an example of the Pope invoking papal infallibility." Is the establishment of something as "dogma" make it "necessary to salvation" in Catholic theology? Or was this established as "necessary to salvation" at a later date that we have not yet mentioned in the text? Either we need to define "dogma" as used by the Catholic Church or add some other fact to the text. Rmhermen 09:46 Aug 19, 2002 (PDT)

If the Pope announces it ex cathedra as a matter of dogma, Catholics have to believe it or go to hell. -- isis

That's a rather harsh way of putting it, but yes, I do think that the general definition of 'dogma' in nearly all religions is that you need to believe that religion's dogma to be accepted as a member of that religion. Wesley
There is a great difference in having to beleive a dogma to be a member of a religion (denomination) or having to beleive a dogma as necessary for salvation. I beleive that Isis is correct on "ex cathedra" dogma now that I think about it. Rmhermen
BTW as a matter of historical record, the papal office (and the bishops in an ecumenical council, who share this authority) has only used the authority of ex cathedra (translated from the chair) rarely in the 2000+ history of the Roman Church. It is the Church's way of establishing the authority of the dogmas of the church. The last two times were concerning dogma about Mary, her Immaculate Conception (1854) and her Assumption (1950). (I teach this stuff for a living.)---luckymama58
I was under the impression that the Church (or Pope) claimed this authority only after the loss of the Papal States in the 1850s -- was I wrong? Slrubenstein
The dogma of infallibility, in which the term ex cathedra appears, could be viewed as a reactionary defensive dogma. It actually was proclaimed an official dogma in 1870 at the First Vatican Council, in reaction to centuries of external and internal strife over the issue, but the authority of the pope has always been upheld throughout the church's history. In reaction to the Protestant reformation, the Council of Trent (1545-1563) emphasized papal authority. What is interesting is that concept of ex cathedra is actually older than the dogma of infallibility, although the authority of the pope was always widely believed and taught. BTW the pope (or bishops) ONLY are infallible when speaking ex cathedra in matters of faith and morals (dogma). ---luckymama58
Eastern Christianity has never recognized the pope's authority independent of the rest of the church; this is part of what led to the Great Schism. During the first millenium, it was the ecumenical councils that had the final say, not the pope's decrees, though the pope was often very influential. The Church has of course long been held to be infallible, as has any bishop when that bishop is speaking the mind of the Church. Vincent of Lerins, I believe a Western monk from around the 5th century, said that a Christian should trust 'that which has been believed everywhere, by everyone, at all times.'
Truth, I was speaking about the Roman branch of the Church in regards to recognizing the authority of the Pope. ---luckymama58

Discussion continues at Talk:Mary, the mother of Jesus

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