Talk:The Time Machine

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Contents

[edit] Random fanon

Note that Roger Ebert gave the 2002 movie 1 1/2 stars; we can be pretty sure that fans won't accept it as canon.

Because the narrative is first-person, the Traveller's description is probably far from complete. He was wrong once, and he can be wrong again. From chapter 10: "It may be as wrong an explanation as mortal wit could invent. It is how the thing shaped itself to me, and as that I give it to you." Here's what some readers have suggested that the Traveller didn't see:

The Eloi don't naturally lack potential intelligence. The Morlocks keep them in line by genetically modifying the staple foods of the Eloi to produce psychoactive drugs. They let the Eloi grow until they're old enough to be harvested, leaving some of them to parent and raise the next generation. The Eloi have evolved a culture accepting that most children will be orphans. Each of the big buildings that house Eloi is run essentially like an orphanage. The appearance of those blasted Precious Moments figurines is based on that of Eloi children.

The sequel can follow any of several paths, one of them being the following: One of the Eloi fasts for a while. The drugs begin to wear off, and his thoughts are no longer clouded. He eventually learns which foods lead to craziness. He begins to convince the others that he is not crazy and that food grown from seeds really does produce enlightenment. He learns of fire, and now the Eloi have a weapon against the Morlocks. A situation like that of Animal Farm ensues. Some help may come from the Traveller. Eventually, the Eloi fall victim to "You are what you defeat."

Could this start a novel? Or should I lay off the dope? --Damian Yerrick

I suppose we can start off a novel like that... I was thinking of writing about a bunch of New Yorkers using Wellsian time travel technology to attempt to prevent the September 11 attacks. One idea would be to have them go back in time to prevent the construction of the World Trade Center (which might focus attention on the half-hearted efforts to preserve Radio Row in the days of yore - i.e., the 1960s. That, in turn, might call into being a Jack Finney-esque description of New York in the 1960s.) Another item might be to attempt to talk Mohammad Atta out of doing it. Perhaps another idea might be that a mistake leads to an even deadlier terrorist attack (i.e., a hijacked airplane plunges into Times Square or topples the Empire State bdg. immediately, killing, say, 6,000 folks in the process.)

I also wouldn't mind an Alexander Hartdegen novel (Alex was the name of the Time Traveler in the 2002 movie, but I'd have him bumping around NYC rather than the world of the Eloi.) - Richard Rabinowitz (Rickyrab|kibitz)

[edit] Spoilers

Interesting ideas above for fan literature, I'd like to see them if they get done. But I'm more interested in an analysis of the original novel for this article, dealing with canonical issues (I doubt Wells thought of or grasped the concept of genetic engineering or dopants in food). I have started off an analysis of the plot of the novel. It started off as an intention to discuss the inferred social history (as mused upon by the Time Traveller) and how it created the Eloi/Morlock societies. Then I decided on a comprehensive outline of the plot, similar to what Khaosworks is doing for the film plots. For most literature and movies I normally disagree with extensive spoilers, but this is rather old fashioned and quirky and hard to read for young people and those whose first language is not English. The novel text is available on-site, so I hope my spoilers are used as a quick-access guide while reading the novel.--ChrisJMoor 01:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Spoilers aren't going to be a problem for a public domain novel. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 00:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this article is going to get rather large if I do this. Suggesting that we move the sections about the two movies to separate articles. Otherwise, downloading the page could become tediously slow for people on slow modems, causing them to back-click in disgust and all our work will be in vain!--ChrisJMoor 22:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization

Should this article be included in the category "Dystopian novels"? 216.214.103.34 23:11, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Aaaah dunno, but probably. — Rickyrab | Talk 15:32, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A new chapter?

Does anyone know anything about the "new" chapter added to the story for the Great Illustrated Classics version? As a kid I read that book before I read the actual Wells version, and I was amazed to discover it did not include the chapter where the Time Traveller stumbles upon a future society where time travel is illegal. What's the story behind this?

Yes I'd love to know more about the extra chapter also. I'm RTFMing but haven't turned up anything yet. If it was written by Well (which one presumes) then the extra chapter must be copyright free in much of the world along with the rest of the book - ie free reproductions should include it. Robertbrockway 03:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
A bit more RTFM later. Here is an old Usenet post where at least one person believes the additional chapter was not written by Wells:
Google Groups
Would someone really be so gauche as to add a chapter to a classic like this? Robertbrockway 05:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
If it's public domain, anything goes. However, "most of the world" would still exclude primarily Mexico and Europe, which recognize life plus at least 70 years (doesn't that sound like a prison sentence for a double murder?) and thus still recognize a copyright in all of HGW's works. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 00:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needed for the 2002 movie

Can somebody resurrect or restore the article dealing with the movie from 2002? What was the budget for the 2002 movie? Who was on the crew, and what were the names of the cast, the production company, and so on?

I just created the article for the 2002 movie with the movie-info box. But is a stub article, so be generous in filling it in. Val42 20:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge in to movie (1960) article

There doesn't seem to be any discussion here about the merge with the 1960 movie section with the 1960 movie article, so I'm going to just do it. Val42 19:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] wasn't he a racist?

Is The Time Machine wells way of showing what would happen if racial descrimination was allowed to continue long enough?

More like class division, actually. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Generally agree, although Wells was very likely against racism ("Our true nationality is mankind"). The relationship between the Eloi and Morlocks was hardly equitable and perhaps this is a weak satire of extreme racism (although the traveller doesnt specifically allude to this, IMO). No information on it, but it is possible that the Morlocks represent the pariah class of the Indian caste system(again, not mentioned in text). Wells would very likely know about that and the Eloi do treat the Morlocks with fear/disgust. Few if any web hits relating to this subject but perhaps somebody has an old fashion Wells' autobiography handy?--ChrisJMoor 02:23, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
An interesting suggestion, but the caste system in India is not two-tier like the one we see here. It's more likely - and more commonly argued - that Wells was talking about Marxist/socialist class models, i.e. the Eloi being the decadent bourgeoisie that oppressed the proletariat Morlocks but over the course of time the proles seized control of the means of production and turned on the upper classes. That sort of thing. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
From what I have read it is an exacerbation of the British class system. Doesn't something similar appear in When the Sleeper Wakes Up? --Error 01:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that one subtext is that there is a class/evolution subtext. Doesn't one of the Time Traveller's friends say something to the effect that the beginnings of the process of evolutionary division occurring at the time of narration? Jackiespeel 17:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protagonist's name in 1960 movie

The article says, regarding the 1960 movie, "The time traveler had the first name of George." In fact, as can be read on the Time Machine itself in the movie, the Time Traveler's name was H. George Wells. --Heath 68.118.23.158 13:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Several questions

First off it seems to me that the summary of the plotline in the novel is a bit lengthy, in my opinion if somone wanted to know that much detail they might as well read the novel, its only 150 pages long. I would be happy to do some trimming, just thought I had better voice my opinion before shortening somones hard work.

Also, since we have seperate pages for both the 1960 film and the 2002 film, could we not take out some of the description of those in this article? Certainly we could mention them and wikilink to both articles, but it seems somewhat repiticious to me. Again I am not simply stating these things so others will do the work, just want to make sure I am on the same page with people. --Mr. Dude †@£К ║ Çøת†яĭβü†ĬŎИ 23:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Time travel into the far future.

Reference should be made to the timeline for the Sun's future is in accordance with contemporary ideas of stellar evolution (of HGW's time), rather than present (late 20th/early 21st century) estimates.

Allowing for this discrepancy, how plausibie is HGW's description of the Earth at the intended point in its future that he was trying to describe?

Jackiespeel 17:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chapter 11 (Not Bankruptcy)

Now, while I was perusing the Time Machine, I noticed that there was a label saying that Chapter 11 had been edited out due to excessive violence. I suppose it's possible, but I think of it as utterly implausible. The chapter deals with the last moments of a dying Earth (I read the book and expanded the article), but has no violence whatsoever. All that the Time Traveler does is marvel in stupefied horror at the world before him, and he is frigtened when one of the crab-like creatures investigates him. There is no violence whatsoever. Just think this might need investigation.

--Phantom.exe 19:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't find much on the topic. There is this article, which says....
Indeed, in the New Review magazine version of the tale, published before the book, the Time Traveller witnesses even more degraded forms of the Eloi and Morlocks, still locked in their predator-prey relationship - small kangaroo-like creatures hunted by ghastly centipedes. The great overarching message is that social structures will give way to the forces of biology, and that life itself will ultimately give way to the forces of physics.
The novel was originally published in serial form: the early parts appeared in the National Observer in 1893; a more refined version was published the following year in the New Review. The episodes were collected and further refined for publication in book form in 1895.
So... I get the impression that Wells was just gradually working on the story and changed things (as opposed to the omg censorship! view that a violent-chapter omission would imply). As far as something specific to chapter 11... no comment. ~ Booyabazooka 21:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rod Taylor cameo in 2002 Film

I remember for a few brief seconds that after seeing the ending (not the full movie) of the 1960's movie (Rod Taylor's time machine) on Turner Classic Movies that the commentator said something about Taylor doing a cameo in the 2002 remake of TTM (Guy Pearce's time machine). Is this true, and where is a picture of him? --Seishirou Sakurazuka 06:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism and copyright infringement?

I just removed this sentence "Do not Edit this again or I will kill whoever does." from the section on the plot summary. This sort of proprietary regard to content goes against Wikipedia's standards, but it made me think that the section might in fact be taken from one person's research paper, and not be the proper format for an encyclopedia. Any thoughts?


I agree, it should be changed. The style is sometimes inappropriate (mix of present and past) and there is at least one grave misreading: "...that his explanation for the Eloi-Morlock separation is simple, beautiful, and wrong." According to (almost) all critics the exploration of class distinction and the following evolution and split of humanity into Morlocks and Eloi with the Eloi merely being cattle is definetely Wells' central point. This functions not only as a critique of Victorian/capitalist class distincitions, but at the same time also as a critique of the teachings of Social Darwinism. While the time traveler - as a scientist - always is aware of the possibility of being wrong, he by no means thinks he is wrong as the text suggests. His exact words also quoted above are: "It may be as wrong an explanation as mortal wit could invent" Ch. 10. The issues of "birth control to eliminate the problems of overpopulation" also seems to me an anachronistic reading, at least I do not remember coming across it while reading the novel. I might be wrong, but I would suspect it is more to the fact that somebody's imagination has run wild - maybe the new novel mentioned under "Random fanon" is beginning right here ;-).

"Simple, beautiful, and wrong" should refer to the traveler's first theory, concocted before he met the Morlocks. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 17:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some explanations for the European reader

Re UNEXPLAINED. Mark Twain anticipated Wells in the 1889 publication of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, but Twain had not provided his protagonist with any machine or control over his travel in time, which is in fact left completely unexplained. "Completely unexplained??" our reader might well exclaim, "what are these American WP people talking about?" And at first glance, he would have a point. Mark Twain opens his book not only with a Preface but also with A Word of Explanation (10 pages long) in which we find everything explained in a most satisfactory manner. In a misunderstanding conducted with crowbars the Connecticut Yankee is laid out with a crusher alongside the head and comes to in Camelot. True, time travel is not explained, but why should it be? Nobody is travelling in time in Mark Twain's book. It was clear to Mark Twain: A blow on the head might land a man in Camelot, but no amount of travelling in time could ever do.
Yes, but currently this is not established knowledge. The American Wikipedia documents only established knowledge. A day will come when it will be established knowledge that Camelot is not situated on any point of the space-time continuum, and then, of course, Wikipedia editors will change the passage quoted above, along with the rest of all insults to the reader's intelligence in the current version of the article. Ultimately, the article will make sense. In the year 802701. Maybe. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 09:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite get what your point is or why you compare American as opposed to European readers. It looks like your conclusion constitutes original research. Either explain how your edit contributes to changing the article or, if you can provide references for your view, include it into the article. If neither, then this is not the right place to post your personal essay. 67.173.254.237 02:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

American vs. European reader: The difference is that Canada uses the life+50 rule and the United States uses the pub+95 rule, both of which put The Time Machine in public domain, while Europe uses the life+70 rule, under which all of H. G. Wells's works are still copyrighted until January 1, 2017. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 23:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Re ORIGINAL RESEARCH. "POV, Original Research?", our reader might well exclaim, "what are these American WP people talking about?" Literature is POV and Original Research. A thing that is not POV and Original Research cannot be called literature. And the same must needs be true for writing about literature, and for writing about writing about literature, and so on...
Yes, but the American Wikipedia documents only established knowledge. And currently this is not established knowledge. However, a day will come when it will be, and then, of course, it will be reflected in every article and on every discussion page. Ultimately, Wikipeda will make sense. In the year 802701. Maybe. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 12:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

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