Talk:The Three Ravens

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I thought that "Twa" meant three

Nope. If you don't believe us, check it out here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Analysis of work: “The Three Ravens Explicated,” Midwest Folklore, Vol. XIII #3, Summer 1963, by Vernon V Chatman III.

That's nice. Be sure to add this reference to the article if you decide to incorporate any information from it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately it doesn't add anything to the article, so I'm cutting it. As far as I can tell, no information from the reference has been added to the article so it's not a useful citation, and a single analysis in an obscure journal published over 40 years ago isn't sufficiently notable to mention as a point of interest. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I see I'll have to explain this in more detail. So far, all the edits concerning this article have been about the article. This page isn't about the article; it's about the song. If the article has interesting information about the song in it, then use it as a source. But the bare fact that such an article was written, and a very sketchy summary of what it was about is not in and of itself of interest here.

Bibliographical information about the article doesn't belong in the body of the text anyway, but in the "References" section (which would have to be created in this case.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 10:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I know nothing about the publication in question, whether it's a scholarly journal or merely a newsletter of some kind, and I'm not at all clear what the author's qualifications are. If the refrain is anything but the kind of "filler" material very commonly found of songs of the period -- one might as well sing "fa-la-la" or some such -- you'd have to go a long way to convince me of that. There is no doubt interesting symbolism connected with the doe which would be of interest, assuming there's more to it than the first paragraph of the "Lyrics of the Ballad" section alludes, but merely telling us of the existence of some written ruminations on the subject is, again, not of interest. This is an encyclopedia article about the song. Tell us about the song. TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 About Midwest Folklore 2 Analysis 3 Library search from link that was provided does not require a subscription. 4 Reference style

[edit] About Midwest Folklore

Midwest Folklore is (renamed and now superceded) a scholarly journal. First pubd. v. 1-13; Apr. 1951-winter 1963/64 Description 13 v. 23 cm Alt author Indiana University Alt title Midwest folklore Continues Hoosier folklore 0731-213X (DLC) 47035585 Cont. by Journal of the Folklore Institute 0015-5934 (OCoLC)1753020

ISSN 0544-0750 LCCN 52062586 //r82

http://web2.unt.edu/untpress/catalog/detail.cfm?ID=68:

“… this collection of Texas folklore, … features a symposium on "Folksong and Folksong Scholarship" by five men eminent in the field of folk music [including] … W. Edson Richmond, editor of Midwest Folklore and teacher of courses on the ballad at the University of Indiana.”

[edit] Analysis

This is much better than before, so I thank you, but there is still much that can be said. What has been added so far is rather elliptical. And when the conclusion that are presented are surprising or non-obvious it's best to give some of the supporting evidence.

• Could you present some of the argument from the reference about the refrain? On first glance, the refrain appears no different in nature than the numerous refrains of the same sort in songs of the period. ("Fa la la", "Hey nonny nonny", "With a down down derry down down", etc.) You could look just through Meliamata and see many, many examples. Why is this one different?

• What is meant by "war song"? Again on first glance, it's obviously not a fighting song; the melody is highly unsuitable. If it just means a song about a war, that's nearly tautological.

• Irish? That's very surprising given the complete lack of Irish dialectical expressions and the characteristically English style of the refrain. Could we see some of the supporting argument for this? Anglo-Irish maybe? Or is the idea that something like "Twa Corbies" was the prototype, recast by an Englishman?

• A "host of difficulties"? Most of it seems fairly clear, and indeed you only mention two.

• If this is "difficult" for the modern reader as asserted, what were the conditions of its original context that rendered it intelligible to a listener of the time?

• The "Find it in a library" link would be more useful if it actually set up some of the query. And there's no reason to use TinyURL here since the URL itself need not appear in the text. Edit: Actually, I'm cutting this. It appears as if searches on that site are only available to subscribers. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Library search from link that was provided does not require a subscription.

I used tinyurl because in my experience long links can be corrupted when multi-line in some texts. Sorry.

In that case it would be helpful if you included at least some fragment of a search. I could find no non-subscription search engine from the page you pointed to. (There seemed to be a trial version that limits the search somehow, but I wasn't clear if you had a limited number of searches available, or of the scope of it was somehow limited.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

And I'm sorry, but I'm forced to revert again. You added more words, but not very much information, with no actual argumentation from the article, and the information you did add is among those extraordinary claims that require extraordinary proofs. A very great number of English folk songs from period use similar refrains, without a hint that "derry" means this Derry or that the words are chosen for anything but a pleasing or suitable vocalism. One fact that ought to refute the claim on its face: The walled city of Londonderry was only built in 1613-1618, while the song was recorded in 1611 and is probably far older. Yes, Derry was inhabited much longer than that, but I see nothing to indicate that is was such a remarkable place before the late 16th early 17th centuries. Thus, this is really a claim that cannot be made so baldly.

I'm tempted to revert all your recent changes, but I'd really like to see the information from your source developed so I can express an informed opinion. I'm at a complete loss as to why you're not doing so. Although I must say that given the fragmentary information you've provided so far it's sounding less and less like a credible source, in any event certainly not the majority opinion on the song and not deserving of a prominent mention in so brief an article. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm basically with TCC on this. The recent additions spend an inordinate amount of time on the opinions of a single guy who seems to make some broad assumptions and treat the story as historical fact rather than a mystical poem. If it isn't "original research" it's only because it's been published once in a minor journal. Many songs have refrains that are more complex than fa la la and wack fol the diddle but are still generally accepted to be basically meaningless. Moving the song to Ireland because of the single mention of the word "Derry" seems quite extreme. Is that Chatham who said that, because he use of the EB makes it seem like original research? The fact that the mext paragraph says that "Derry" means "oak-wood" sort of shoots down that theory as well. This has now gone from an article to an essay. I'm not sure of a wholesale reversion is necessary, but severe editing is. -R. fiend 15:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

My apologies, but I have a touch of the flu this evening and my head is pounding too hard to make the necessary edits. I'll get to it in the next day or two. I'm not really certain how closely we can identify User:Vvchatman3 with the apparently eponymous author of the Midwest Folklore article: he's never offered a positive identification himself, and with a 1963 publication he would now have to be well above the median age of Wikipedia users. (Which of course doesn't make it impossible, just unlikely.) If it is the same author, then this seems to be in origin nothing more than a vanity edit, since at first all he did was to mention the publication and it was only after considerable browbeating on my part that he was persuaded to actually present the argument. If that is indeed the case, I will be highly miffed. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

PS - I wikied "flu" above. Am I pathetic or what? (If I were really pathetic I'd go back and dab it now, so maybe I'm not as bad off as I think.)

I did haul out the OED though, and Mr. Chatman would have been well advised to consult the definition of "derry" before he embarked on his harebrained theorizing. We discover that its sole definition is, "A meaningless word in the refrains of popular songs." WRT "down", the meaning he's relying on here is first attested in 1610, too late to have been the primary meaning in a ballad that long predates its recording in 1611. Since there are 8 columns of definitions for "down" one suspects that the evidence was carefully selected to support the theory rather than the other way around. Especially when we come to adv 26: "Used in ballad refrains, without appreciable meaning". Amazing what you find when you check the references. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Using the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1956) we find that Londonderry was once named 'Derry.'

It's easier than that. You could just click on Derry and discover that not only was it once named that, a goodly number of the locals still call it that. But so what? "Derry" is a common nonsense word in old ballad refrains according to the OED, so when we encounter it in a ballad refrain there's no reason to think it's anything else. There is absolutely nothing about this song pointing it to the town. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, of course, "absolutely nothing" is wrong. One can read the entire case in the Chatman reference.

I did read it. It's ridiculous. By that reasoning half the ballads of the period are about Ireland. Somehow we're supposed to believe that in all the centuries of English folk music no one ever even suspected that any of these songs were about Ireland until this Chapman guy comes along and sets everyone straight. Sorry, but I don't think so. I'll believe the OED before I believe Chapman. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, you exaggerate: the argument was not that 'derrie' is a reference to Ireland in all texts.

I don't exaggerate. No reason was offered as to why in this song alone "derrie" meant the Irish town, but not in any of the others. The same logic is therefore applicable to all of them. If not, some reason needs to be presented, but none was. (And if so it would be a case of Special pleading and an instance of circular logic, not proof of anything. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Not so. Position was not taken that: in this song alone "derrie" means the Irish town," so no reason 'why' is required as a matter of logic.

Whoah. You just said, "the argument was not that 'derrie' is a reference to Ireland in all texts." Either it was or it wasn't: make up your mind. Let me be generous and assume that you claim that "derrie" means Derry in some songs but not others. We have had no criteria at all presented that allows us to tell the difference, let alone any that are for one moment credible. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reference style

I changed the reference style to use <ref> instead of {{fnb}}, I hope nobody minds. If you are adamãnt about using it, I won't protest you reverting me or anything (hell, I just got here ;), but please replace it with {{note}}. fnb is deprecated. Oskar 22:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)