Talk:The Stranger (novel)
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[edit] old talk (may be unsigned, unorganized and undated)
I completely disagree that Meursault doesn't embody the existential philosophy or that is actions are "subconscious at best." Meursault is a natural result of someone who has intellectually (and consciously) embraced the idea of a lack of inherent meaning in the world and thus lives his life in the present and for the pleasures of the physical world at hand.
Just thought I'd mention that the second English translation says right in it that the translation was originally published in 1988. Someone put 1989 in the article. I decided to mention it here instead of editting the page myself as I've never editted a page here before.
Oops, my edit didn't show up how I had intended it. See what I mean about never having editted anything here before? Sorry
I always thought that this was best translated as The Outsider; I know it's been published as The Stranger but certainly I wouldn't search for this work under The Stranger but as The Outsider. I suspect I am not alone. user:sjc
hey, i understand, and you're right to a point, and it might be a regional thing too, but the french translation is 'foreigner'...I just googled it http://translate.google.com/
- I tend to agree with you, sjc - The Outsider is more familiar to me as well, but a Google search on "'The Stranger' Camus" comes up with a lot more hits than "'The Outsider' Camus". The book has been translated as both, so it doesn't matter that much which one the article is at, so long as there is a redirect from the other name. --Camembert
Personally, I know it best by the French title (probably because I read it for a French language class...) As such "The Stranger" is immediately recognizable; "The Outsider" less so. --Brion 19:50 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)
Should I really state what I think of having l'Etranger under the title of The Stranger. That's a shame !!! But, of course, I will be told that this is an english wiki with english titles, english everything. Still, that translation is horrible.
This said, Magreb is a bunch of several countries (as defined in the text). I might be wrong, but as far as I know, Pieds noirs are french people who got to Algeria, stay there for a while (more than a generation), and then come back. Most of the Pieds-Noirs settled in Marseille region, Toulon, St Raphaël...A couple of people think they refer not only to french but more widely to europeans, but always, who had been in Algeria only. Not the whole Magreb. This is important imho. I'll check more though.
Reference article http://www.ifrance.com/memo2/pages/nosori.htm
According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), when a non-English book is written up, the article should be named for the most commonly used English title. So I guess The Stranger is what's best. —LarryGilbert 22:41, 2004 Mar 31 (UTC)
(note: my first language is French) I see no reason for the comment concerning l'étranger being rightly translated as 'foreigner'. Étranger does have several meanings in French that need to be disentangled. It does have the connotation of external to one's country, as in Affaires Étrangères => Foreign Affairs. However, it also has the connotation of a generic person unknown to you. In the context of Camus' book I would say that Mersault is an étranger in the sense that he is a stranger in the sense that is world is unknown to even himself. Camus focuses a lot on the way Mersault is unaffected by the world around him, hence making himself a stranger to everyone including himself. Therefore I think the comment about foreigner be removed --Pmineault 06:16, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Was this novel actually influenced by Heidegger, as the article says? That seems unlikely to me. --Ilyusha
I haven't read this novel but I was told at school that it is the only French novel written in the perfect tense (all other novels being in the past historic), and that this in itself gives it a feeling of alienation. I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it's worth someone adding to the article. Ben Finn 22:32, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't have the book in front of me, but this seems extraordinarily unlikely to me. Jkelly 04:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
- It is true that The Stranger is written without using the passé simple, and that it is, to my knowledge, unique in this respect. As to this engendering a feeling of alienation, I really don't know. 209.69.41.129 17:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- The compound past is a conversational tense whereas the simple past is a literary tense. In general the book is written in very simple language, which makes it ideal for students. As for what that gives you, I felt it was a little cold and detached. (e.g., first sentence "Aujourd'hui, Maman est morte. Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas." "Today, Mom died. Or maybe yesterday, I don't know.") —Casey J. Morris 03:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I attempted to clean up this page a bit and add sections. Also, I changed the translation note to reflect Pmineault's comment. removed the clean-up tag, if someone thinks this page still needs clean up, please either clean it up yourself, or return the tag and write on the talk page what is missing.--darkskyz 12:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article states, "Meursault ... believes passionately in truth and justice" Yet, it's quite the opposite. Meursault is indifferent about these ideals. You do not see him fighting injustice or going into a philosophic frenzy searching for truth. Actually, truth for him is malleable and undependable. It is also irrelevant. He is only concerned about truth and justice when they directly affect his life, as seen after he recieves the death sentence.
"Meursault's love of truth overrides his self-preservation instinct - he feels that he must be punished for his actions, and refuses to try to evade justice." This is also questionable. Meursault didn't really believe he did something wrong. (It was the sun!) He shows no remorse and does not regret what he did. There is no way he is welcoming punishment! It is not the way he thinks. In the last chapter, he yearns for freedom and wishes to start living once again. No, he did not want to die to rectify the situation; he simply stopped stressing about death at the end.
I agree. Badgerpatrol 00:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
That is true, Meursault is partially an existentialist, therefore he does not believe in institutions (such as the police or marraige). The first half of the book is existentialist, Meursault never judges anyone, only observes them. Thrawst
[edit] Did Meursault commit murder?
I was always under the impression from reading l'Etranger that Meursault didn't kill the Arab on purpose, which the word murder would suggest. I think kill would be a better word for describing it.
- I agree that 'kill' would probably be a better word, though I almost wish there was a word in-between 'murder' and 'kill', because its not like any of his explanations actually make sense as far as an accidental shooting go (or, really, as reasons for murder). -Seth Mahoney 02:35, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] "It is the highest selling book in France."
This claim was in the intro graf, I removed it because it seemed unlikely to me, is in the wrong spot, could use some figures to back it up, and in general looked like an anonymous poster was making an untrue claim. --Andymussell 22:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] the arab
the article mentions that "the arab" is raymond's ex's brother, but i was under the impression that he was not related to her but just the same nationality.
[edit] determinism != no free will
"Another theme is that we make our own destiny, and we, not God, are responsible for our actions and their consequences (non-determinism)." I strongly disagree with this sentence. Determinism doesn't neceserily claim that free will doesn't exist or that God is responsible for everything. Determinism is simply the belief that every physical action has a cause and it can be predicted scientifically if you know its current state. In human behavior, for example, it would be like predicting when you would get hungry... it won't predict if you would steal to satisfy your hunger
- Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end. Maybe not, but it doesn't really matter. This always sounds a little harsh, but the thing is that it doesn't matter if you agree or not - what matters is what the philosopher(s) in question say, whether or not it is sourced (or sourcable), etc., according to Wikipedia:NOR and Wikipedia:Cite your sources. -Smahoney 16:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Outsider
Even though the literal translation of l'étranger is "the stranger" or "the foreigner", the "outsider" works better as it shoes meursault's alienation from society, which is a running theme in the novel
- Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end. There are English editions of the book called both The Stranger and The Outsider. Currently, The Outsider is a disambiguation page which links to The Stranger (among other places). -Smahoney 16:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Problem with "Cultural Influences"
I think the title of the section "cultural influences" is misleading. Under the title cultural influences I'd expect to find elements of culture that influenced the book, at least, that's what anyone reading proper English should expect.
I propose the section be renamed "Influences on culture" or something to that tune. Even "references in popular culture" would suit me fine; anything but "cultural influences," it is a very misleading and inaccurate title indeed. Any takers? TydeNet 10:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Americanized
- The tone of the two English translations is quite different, with the Gilbert translation exhibiting a more formal tone, while the Ward translation *is more "Americanized". An example of this difference can be found in the first sentence of the first chapter:
- * Gilbert translation: "Mother died today."
- * Ward translation: "Maman died today."
- (Maman is an informal French term for mother.)
Is replacing an English term with a French one really a good example of it being more Americanized? Or is that just an example for it being a less formal tone? Seems kinda unclear as it is. Nakanja 12:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
-
- I agree. This is either a bad example or just poorly explained. I completely fail to see how using 'Maman' makes the Ward translation more "Americanized." Can anyone explain this, or provide an example that makes sense? I am taking out the words after "a more formal tone" in that sentence until it is edited to be clearer, since the sentence makes sense stopping at that point anyway. CoramVobis 02:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] revert of recent addition
Someone did a cut and paste of a large mass of text that was a plot mixed in with original analysis. It looked like a school paper. Not really appropriate for Wikipedia. A short plot summary is fine with cited analysis by notable critics in a separate section. -- Stbalbach 14:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] More cleanup
I cleaned up the article a bit more, combined the translation sections and refrences sections, removed some insignificant cultural references (movie characters seen holding the book, president Bush's reading list, etc.), and added a No original reasearch template to the top of the background and philoshopy section as it seems like OR. darkskyz 11:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
