Talk:The Smiths

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Archives
May 2006

Contents 1 WEA Acquisition of Smiths catalogue 2 Please don't add any more bands to the "influenced" bit 3 Pop 4 James Maker 5 Scott Piering 6 Uncited claim re band name origin 7 Genre Specifications 8 Add Another Genre 9 The Libertines/Britpop 10 Timeline

[edit] WEA Acquisition of Smiths catalogue

I think the Wiki should include the compilations made by WEA; i.e. BEST .. (1), BEST .. (2) and The Very Best of The Smiths.

[edit] Please don't add any more bands to the "influenced" bit

There's more than enough groups there already. Put it on the band's page, sure, but I think it's safe to say The Smiths' influence is pretty wide-reaching, and a list of every band they've ever influenced would be almost as long as the article itself! If there's a significant reason to add a group, do so but please leave some justification for their addition here. Thanks. --Hn 10:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I've just removed the Primitives and restored the Stone Roses, though - the Primitives were championed by Morrissey but not as obviously influenced by the Smiths as the Stone Roses were (and the Roses were a far bigger band and fellow-Mancunians). --ajn (talk) 10:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pop

I think its inappropriate to call The Smiths a "rock group". Their music is undeniably "pop" music. This is in no way an insult to the band. I think in today's age of manufactured, bland commercial pop, pop has become a dirty word, and aspiring to make pop music something to be ashamed of. What was so great about the Smiths was their desire to make great, intelligent and meaningful pop music. In the context of the 1980s, they were a pop group making brilliant pop music. 213.121.151.142 19:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

In actuality all rock music is pop music. However, "Pop" now has specific connotations. Indie pop is sufficient to describe the Smiths' pop leanings because, well, that's what they were WesleyDodds 01:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about pop. They were (opinion here:) about as goth as they were pop, which isn't to say they were not either. Indie pop and indie rock are both fine classifications.

goth? um, no. Joeyramoney 06:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that they should be labeled 'Indie' anything; they were around when Indie meant Independant and hadn't yet been high-jacked by major labels. In my opinion, Post-Punk or Alternative Rock would be a more accurate description.

Is all rock music pop? Are Faust pop? Are Soft Machine pop? It's hard to say with many bands... which is why it remains a matter of debate. Certainly the music of The Smiths has pop hooks, and song structures, etc, so I could see them being placed in the 'pop' category much more easily than I do the two bands I mentioned...--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] James Maker

James Maker (who went on to join Raymonde and RPLA) was a fifth "member" of the band. Granted, he lasted two weeks (as I understand things) but I feel he should have a mention. He was a "go-go" dancer and made his first appearence at The Smiths' first gig at the Ritz in Manchester. He was dropped as the rest of band decided this wasn't the image they wanted to portray. tenfourzero 11:34, 03 May 2006 (UTC)

I see Maker has been added to "Members" in the top-of-article infobox (listed as "1982-83", which is pretty good going for a week or two's work).

Also added is Wolstencroft as a 1982 drummer.

I will have to research Wolstencroft's involvement, as I wasn't aware he was ever involved in any meaningful capacity, but surely Maker as a "member" is pretty much overstating things? And - if it transpires he once met Marr and jammed or something trivial like that - the same would apply to Wolstencroft.

If these guys are so "significant" that they don't merit a single verifiable mention in the main article, then why are they listed as members? --DaveG12345 19:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

(Update: turns out Wolstencroft was an ex-Freak Party member who drummed on the first Smiths demo, but was gone before their first gig - so he lasted rather less time than, e.g., Dale Hibbert, who at least got a gig. So - as with Maker - was he a Smiths "member"?) --DaveG12345 19:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Scratched Maker & Wolstencroft from the article infobox. Unless their influence was such that they merit a non-trivial "they existed" mention in the article, they cannot justify a position as "members" IMO. --DaveG12345 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scott Piering

According to his obituary in The Times, Scott Piering managed The Smiths for 3 albums. If this is true, and as Piering now has an article, you might want to mention it/link to him. --kingboyk 14:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited claim re band name origin

I moved this here from the article page:

This could also be a reference to Dave and Maureen Smith (Maureen was Myra Hindley's sister), who both feature heavily in Emlyn Williams's indepth book about the Moors Murders, "Beyond Belief". It is clear that Morrissey was influenced by this book as evinced by the song "Suffer Little Children", and it is well known that Morrissey was and is fascinated by these tragic and most awful murders.

Unless we can be provided with some strong verifiable citation confirming that, out of the millions of Smiths in the world, this one (the married name of a Moors Murderer's sister) was the one the group had in mind, I think this has to stay out of the main article. "Suffer Little Children" is already mentioned in the article, so really this content is only adding the claim about the band's name, plus somewhat superfluously plugging a book (it seems to me).--DaveG12345 19:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genre Specifications

Indie pop & Indie rock are both subgenres of Alternative, I don't think we also need to specify that The Smiths are an Alternative band. Both of the previously mentioned genres more than imply that. There are other bands of this era that identify with & exemplify the Alternative genre more than The Smiths did, therefore I see no need to point out a broader genre that doesn't really narrow down their music nearly as well as Indie pop & Indie rock, which do a fine job explaining their influence - when Post-punk & Alternative shifted into Indie pop. User: Anthonylombardi

It's there primairly because that's what they are and are described as, they are a seminal force in the genre as a whole, and it's certainly a more familiar term than indie rock or indie pop for those not familiar with the genres. Alternative is a broad genre, sure, but the Smiths were one of the most influential and visible bands of the genre prior to Nirvana. WesleyDodds

Someone above in the "Pop" category also agreed that Indie pop & Indie rock are both fine classifications for The Smiths. Whereas a band like Nirvana were thrown into the Grunge genre (& they were, undeniably, Grunge - whether through association with the mainstream or musically), Alternative is a wider genre to describe them due to many disagreements with their similarities to primary Grunge artists. The Smiths marked a point in Alternative music where Post-punk turned to Indie pop & Indie rock (which is also stated in an article on allmusic.com) - so while, yes they are Alternative, I think it's a rather obvious implication & that Indie pop & Indie rock suit them just fine under the genre category, as these were the genres they really exemplified to a much higher degree. They were listed as Indie pop & Indie rock only for a very long time, & now all the sudden Alternative is thrown in there - & I make a rather solid argument to take it out, & when I do it's considered vandalism. This isn't registering with me. User: Anthonylombardi

That doesn't change the fact that they're an alternative rock band, and it's also notable that they tend to extend past the indie pop and indie rock genres. Also, alternative has been listed in the infobox for a while; the page originally said "rock, pop, alternative, indie" before being changed into its current configuration.

Also, I'm not quite sure, but you seem to be signing in and out of an account. Please only edit under your account if possible, and sign your posts. WesleyDodds 10:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not denying that The Smiths are an Alternative band - they obviously are - my only argument is that it may not be a very good idea to list every genre that the band associated themselves with. Let's use Nirvana as an example again - Grunge & Alternative are both subgenres of Hard Rock, so should we add "Hard Rock" under Nirvana's list of genres? That isn't there, even though they are inarguably a Hard Rock band. I distinctively remember either "Indie pop & Indie rock" or just "Indie pop" being the sole genres listed for The Smiths, as I don't recall Alternative being added until recently. I was just suggesting that we only use the two main genres that best represent what the band exemplified & helped to unify during their timespan together.

I don't have a userpage set up, nor do I really know how to set one up, so there's nothing to link to if I were to sign my posts. I signed in a few times by accident but I normally make changes anonymously (which, as I understand, isn't against the rules). I apologize if that's an inconvenience. User: Anthonylombardi

It's required that you sign your posts on talk pages in order to identify posters. WesleyDodds 10:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Now that that's cleared up . . . The thing is during the 80s indie rock and alternative rock were largely synonymous terms. In particular, the phrase "indie" in the UK during the 80s and even to this day not only refers to indie rock, but alternative rock as a whole--this includes grunge, Madchester, Britpop, etc. And the Smiths were the posterboys for "indie". Over in the States we'd tend to call it "college rock" until "alternative" caught on. Consequently, the Smiths were labeled as college rock. So really, if push came to shove, there's more of a reason to list alternative rock over indie rock in the infobox; much modern usage of the term "indie rock" refers to alternative music that stayed underground after Nirvana broke through.

And the main reason hard rock isn't listed as a genre on the Nirvana page is hard rock is most often used as a vague signifier for rock that "rocks" rather than a specific style. Unless a band can be specifically described as hard rock it usually isn't used. And alternative isn't a subgenre of hard rock. Additionally, Nirvana is arguably the most important and recognizable alterantive rock band ever; they're as synonymous with the genre as they are with grunge. Prior to that, R.E.M. and the Smiths are. In fact, that's what the Simon Reynolds reference in the first paragraph of this article is all about; he refers to both as "the two most important alt-rock bands of the day". WesleyDodds 11:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

My argument wasn't really for the term "Indie rock" being their main genre definition as much as "Indie pop" - because nowadays, when people look back on The Smiths, they think of them as the poster boys & upstarts of that particular subgenre. Alternative is no doubt a very big part of The Smiths' history - as I've never disagreed with that - my entire objective here was to filter the genre classifications down to its bare essence, since I am in simplest terms a minimalist. I concede in the matter of The Smiths definitely being an Alternative band, I just thought "Indie pop & Indie rock" had a nicer ring to it on the main page, that's all. User: Anthonylombardi

Alternative rock and Indie pop could work since in the context of the eighties indie and alternative rock are largely synonymous. And that's what Allmusic.com labels them as anyways.

I agree - since Alternative & Indie rock are basically synonymous, & Indie pop addresses the specification of their pop fondness, I think we could definitely do away with at least Indie rock. User: Anthonylombardi

i always thought of them as a twittery new wave group.67.172.61.222 04:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add Another Genre

Well....... The Smiths are like post punk or alternative rock ( my opinion new wave or pop rock) I tried to put it in once that they were new wave and i guess someone has taken it down that didn't agree. Come on put alternative pop or New wave more likely thats like the easiest genre placing for the smiths.......indie pop......ok. Was not thinking about that , I was thinking new wave all the way when I first heard them , you know the cure and .........um the talking heads, and stuff compare the sounds take your opinion . I don't know mabey im not right . - Ryusho2

Smiths aren't New Wave; in fact they're considered the turning point between post-punk and New Wave, and alternative rock in the UK. WesleyDodds 01:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

STOP CHANGING THE BLOODY GENRE!! ...(ahem)...Personally I don't think we'll ever reach agreement on whether they were "indie pop" or "indie rock". I think we should put "indie" and leave it at that. MFlet1 22:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

We did have an agreement. It's right above this discussion. It's just that an anonymous poster keeps changing it. And you can't just put indie because the genre term "indie" not delinated in the "indie rock"/"indie pop" way is actually just the British equivalent of the term "alternative rock", so the infobox would just end up saying alternative rock twice. WesleyDodds 10:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as a folky with a small interest in The Smiths, I just want to say that I find this fighting incredibly embarassing. If you place yourself 100 years from now, you'd look back and see that indie pop, indie rock, alternative, and indie are all the same thing. If you asked The Smiths themselves, they'd probably just shrug off the debate. Bjart 18:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Libertines/Britpop

The Smiths are widely recognized to have had a major influence on the Britpop movement, which is not purely "feelgood" music. Regardless of whether one considers The Libertines to be Britpop, they have certainly been influenced by The Smiths. Members of The Libertines often declare as much, notable music reviews often claim this to be the case, and a discerning ear can hear it to be true. Dunne409 08:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

That timeline is worthless. Dear god. rvilbig

I agree -- The Smiths had, for the most part, the same line-up through their tenure together. What exact purpose does the timeline serve? ――Anthonylombardi 00:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that's two movements to remove the timeline -- unless somebody else disagrees & provides a reasonable argument, I'm doing away with it within the next few days (pending further opposition). ――Anthonylombardi 22:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)