Talk:The Secret (2006 film)/Off-topic discussions

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1 Positive attracting positive?
2 Questionable Sincerity
3 Not A Secret At All
4 Criticism (off-topic)
5 Things I Wish Would Happen
6 Things "the world" Wishes Would Happen

Positive attracting positive?

I don't quite get it...physically speaking, the law of attraction says that opposites attract. When it comes to magnets- opposites attract. What are they talking about through out the film? Given this, logically it would make sense that if you think about something negative then something positive will attract. Positive attracting positive? what?...if they really want to be scientific then they should probably drop the whole magnet thing becauase it doesn't make sense....at least not to me. Just call it placebo...ya know....making yourself think that something is happening without things actaully happening.

Questionable Sincerity

I really do not wish to resort to an ad hominem attack, or attack the source of the idea, but, I really must question the motives of the makers of this film. One thing I have learned is, that when people are truly sincere about sharing something, they share it, they don't sell it. First, second, there are several reasons why [I believe] the alleged law of attraction simply doesn't work. For the sake of the reader's time though, I will only mention the most important one.

The law of attraction says that any thoughts you emit will manifest themselves, regardless of whether they are positive or negative. This is to say, constantly worry about a meteor falling on you, and a meteor will eventually fall on you. Constantly think you will make love to, oh, a super model from Israel named Moran Azaria, and it will eventually happen. Clearly, for logistical and good old fashioned common sense reasons, this would never work, but, since I am trying to be a gentleman here, lets grant the arguer his argument. That is, let us say the law of attraction exists. So, the premise is this; the law of attraction EXISTS.

Okay then, assuming it exists, what happens when, oh, you do not know something exists, and yet it comes to you and it happens to you? Lets say a person is worried about being fired from their job. Instead, a 747 jet crashes into the sky-scraper they are working in. According to the law of attraction, the worker was attracting him/her getting fired, not the 747, and yet, what manifested was the 747. This happened in the overly documented terrorist strike on 9/11/2001 which, for all intents and purposes, became the excuse and by word for the genocide of Iraqis.

Here is a better historic example; the native americans of the new world. As far as the native americans were concerned, Europeans did not exist. They had their worries, hopes, dreams, etc, but, they were unaware of the existence of Europeans, and the fact that in the 16th century they were on their way to wipe them out with disease. How can you not want something you do not know even exists? Therein lies a critical flaw in the law of attraction.

The law of attraction according to the people who advocate it, says that whatever it is you think becomes manifest. If you do not even know something exists, how can it become manifest if you can't even think about it? You can not think about something you do not know exists. You can not, not want, something you don't even know its there.

True enough, the Aztecs were scared to death of losing their power. True enough, they feared the return of the great white, bearded god, Quetzalquatl. However, the Spaniards were not gods. The fact that Cortez was white and bearded was an unappy coincidence.

Also, the Aztec prophecy said that Quetzalquatl would return to lord over them, not wipe them from the face of the earth. The Aztec fear was losing power, not being wiped out. Like many native american tribes the Aztecs are now extinct, and only mitochondrial descendants remain. Fact is, the barabarity of the Europeans towards the natives is something no one could have foreseen.

Here is another problem; it was only the Aztecs who feared the return of the white skined bearded god, not the tribes they lorded over. The native american tribes who were oppressed by the Aztecs hated them bitterly, and wanted their destruction. Thus, according to the law of attraction, the only thought they collectively manifested was was their destruction. Surely enough it happened, however, as history showed, nowhere within their thinking was there ever a thought that the Spaniards would become new tyrants. Cortez presented himself as a friend to the rivals of the Aztecs, but, once more troops arrived from Spain, that was the end of that.

At no point did the other native american tribes manifested the thought of being oppressed by foreigners, because they were not aware of either the aztec prophecy, nor of the exitence of foreigners beyond the sea. Also, another problem is, that it is claimed even babies manifest the "signal" which, sent out to the universe, according to the law of attraction may attract good or bad things. Thing is, as a new born baby there is so much a person doesn't know yet. And yet, things happen which they do not know of.

Things like being abandoned for instance. Arguably, it may be said that no baby on this earth wants to be abandoned by their mother. Running on instinct alone because their minds are not yet formed and are just starting to form, the most powerful instinct a newborn baby manifests is "mother, please don't abandon me, hold me." With "great passion" the law of attraction would dictate, the vast majority of babies can be said to manifest a thought of not wanting to be abandoned by their parents. While it happens, than God, with only a minority of babies, the overwhelming majority of parents the world over do not abandon their children. In this case, the numbers speak for themselves; if the law of attraction was true, ALL OF US would be orphans. Again, thank goodness only a small minority of the human race is orphaned each year. Not that any should be, but it is only a small minority.

The main logical flaw in the law of attraction I am trying to point out, is that there are many, many document cases in which things happen to people who may not even be aware of the existence of such things. The people in the twin towers of New York for instance knew planes existed, but, arguably, like most americans not one believed a 747 would crash into those buildings, and not only did they not believe it, but, no one even worried about it. Part of the shock the american public felt was that no ordinary individual really saw it coming.

The law of attraction says, that what is though is manifested. The New Yorkers of the twin towers were thinking many, many negative things no doubt, but, they were not thinking of a 747 jet crashing into those buildings. To say that their collective negative thoughts attracted the jet is a cop-out. Its a cop-out because, is the law of attraction specific, or general for the convenience of whoever is trying to sell that DVD to make a buck?

There are a lot of misguided people in the world today who are disillusioned with the Abrahamic faiths (except Muslims) in the west, and having lost their faith in traditional western spiritual thoughts (e.g. Christianity) there has come an opportunity to make money. Sooner or later though, the majority of westerners often return to Christianity and are "born again." Problem is, in the process they may lose a lot of money unnecessarily.

Put simply, if the main advocate of "The Secret" was truly sincere in sharing what they want to share, [I think] they would share it, not sell it. Selling and sharing are as different as night and day. Not only that, but the material emphasis on the film is clearly designed for "mass appeal." The majority of people in the western world, particularly the Anglo Sphere, are obsessed with acquiring material goods, and naturally the movie is made in such a way to cater to that obsession, with the promise that it will miraculously deliver those things.

It is truly horrible to prey on the vulnerability of poor souls who are more victims of chance, circumstance, and most of all selfish people who are given too much power by our society. It is even more horrible to create a selling tagline which says their misery is deserved because of the way they think. Also, sometimes worries are unfounded; a person may worry, and worry, and worry, and in many cases there is no reason to worry. Everywhere on this earth, the overwhelming majority of mothers worry about their children, often, worry that something bad will happen. 9 times out of 10, something never does, and in many cases, the children in question live to the ripe old age of 90, without the aid of drugs.

I better stop here; I have written too much. Ultimately though, the movie is a con and its makers are out to make a buck. Because it was made in Australia it is only natural that it would reach other parts of the Anglo Sphere, namely here in the U.S. Some of the things the movie says are true, but, as they say, if you want a lie to be convincing put elements of truth into it.

To everyone in Australia forced to put up with that programming, what can I say; I'm sorry. If you want it to stop, I would suggest taking action and consulting with college professors who teach philosophy. Ultimately, it is philosophers, true philosophers, who can debunk the garbage promoted by that movie.

[I believe] Its all a con, and as the British say, flim flam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.63.78.98 (talk) 09:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Not A Secret At All

"The Secret" is just the same lie that has been told over and over again countless times and in countless ways for centuries. "The Secret" is simply a slickly repackaged version of that same age old lie that knowledge is the key to each persons ultimate achievement and to the ultimate achievement of mankind as a whole. If you only have this "secret" knowledge you will unlock the power to be godlike! You can find the origins of this lie in Genesis chapter 2, beginning in verse 16...

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

...Eating from the tree of knowledge is an act of rebellion, a declaration that we can be self reliant apart from God, our creator. In chapter 3 of Genesis, we first encounter "The Secret"...

Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

...The serpent is the first one in history to reveal "The Secret", the lie that we can be like God by attaining knowledge. From that beginning as recorded in Genesis, mankind has bought the lie, "The Secret" and has continued to do so throughout history, right up until our modern times. The truth is that knowledge does not give you god powers, only God gives god powers. And that power is only attained through communion with His Spirit, not by consuming an external knowledge or "Secret".

  -please note that for the purpose of highlighting points, the emphasis is mine in scripture references. KJV

Mbgrafix 20:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but isn't it still something to celebrate despite its flaws? Isn't the film taking a step in the right direction? Calling it a "lie" is like saying "I forgive you" is a lie when someone does it without feeling it — so what? At least it is a step in the right direction. That deep spiritual feeling you name as "communion with His Spirit" may be just where someone arrives—many steps later—after experiencing this film as the first step. And, although I suspect you surrender too much responsibility to a bible and a word (God), I like your point, "only God gives god powers". —WikiLen 02:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If I am desperately thirsty, to the point of death, and you give me a glass of pure, clean water with a drop of deadly poison in it, should I ignore the poison because at least most of the water was pure? I am dead either way. Yes, it felt good for a moment as the cool poisoned water slid down my parched throat, but it was only moments later that I lay dying from your "good feeling". No, only pure water will lead to life. Water that appears pure, but contains poison is even more dangerous than obviously polluted water because the deception is so much greater. In the same way, people are lured in with half-truths as taught in lies such as "The Secret", but seeking life, they only find death. Remember what Jesus said... "I am the way, the truth and the life". He did not say that he knows the way, the truth and the life, He said that He is the way, the truth and the life! BIG DIFFERENCE between knowing and being! -Mbgrafix 04:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Elegant metaphore—gets to the heart of the matter!

Isn't the value of pain—you call it poison—the real secret? Are we so weak that we can't take a little pain? What if Jesus had decide to not be the Christ because the pain would've been too much? What if the film, behind all the hyperbole, behind all coaches making money, behind all the celebration of consumerism, is in fact coming from the same good heart I believe you show to your friends? —WikiLen 22:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Even poison given unkowingly and through pure motives is just as deadly as poison given through malice and deception... the end is the same for both... death! At the heart of "The Secret" is narcism. A supposed plan for enriching and empowering self. Jesus did not teach self promotion, rather His was a message of sacrifice... considering others better than yourself and laying down your life for those you love. His life and His message have nothing in common with the self serving, self promoting, egocentric message which is at the heart of "The Secret". When the serpent told the lie in the garden, the lie was that each person should seek their own empowerment through hidden knowledge... same message being peddled today in so many forms such as "The Secret". --Mbgrafix 15:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Not that I dispute your main point, but give up this poison thing! Watching this whole thing is painful for you, very painful — there's the meat! The hyperbole, the conflicts of interest, and the celebration of consumerism [etc.] — it all pains me too, but so what?. It's painful to watch a child stumble but do we say don't play because you are sure to stumble? Society needs to play with and stumble over this stuff no matter how painful it is to watch. Just as a child grows, there really is something good to come of it. I find beauty in that — divine beauty. —WikiLen 22:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stumbling at times is unavoidable. We stumble because we do not see that which causes us to stumble until it is too late. When what we are about to stumble over is pointed out to us, we are able to avoid it and not stumble. Only the fool sees what he is about to stumble over and stumbles willingly anyway. I say that when walking it is better to follow one who has gone before you so that you may avoid the stumbling blocks rather than choosing your own blind path. Jesus is the only one who has come from heaven to earth and returned again. That is why He is the only true authority on what has eternal value. As for the hyperbole, the conflicts of interest, and the celebration of consumerism [etc.], those are mearly wrapping paper on the age old lie. They are not the real issue, nor are they what pains me. What pains me is people being led down an empty path that leads to destruction. It is the same wide path that people have been following for thousands of years. Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." —Mbgrafix 02:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, except with the part where you assume fools—or children—are able to see. And as for your pain — your "hidden" issue [I submit],

"What pains me is people being led down an empty path that leads to destruction."

You really do want to save people. You are not kidding. You are not doing this just to rant. You have experienced or sensed something of great joy and want to share that joy with others. To fail at that could be deeply painful — poisonous even. —WikiLen 04:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, I say that none can see. I said that only fools stumble over obstacles that have been pointed out to them. Those who stumble in the dark are not fools, they are only blind. Because we all are blind, we need to be guided by one who sees. Many who are blind themselves claim to see and as the old proverb goes, "when the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch". I believe that there is one who sees. One man who sees all things visible and invisible, just as they are. His name is Jesus. Jesus said,

"For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. - John 9:39-41

As for you saying I have a "hidden" issue... there is nothing hidden about my desire to help others. I do not claim to have a corner on truth, nor do I claim to be one who people should follow. Instead, I am simply a man on the road pointing to another man. My message is "talk to Him, He is the answer". It has been my experience that most people who have formed a negative opinion of Christianity have done so based on knowledge, rather than on knowing. At its core, being a Christian is not about attaining knowledge or "truth", rather it is about communing with the one who IS truth. I tell people, forget about everything you think that you know about Christianity... forget all of your church experiences in life, forget all of the books, articles and TV programs on the subject that you have consumed over the years of your life. They will not help you. Do not go to the books, articles, shows, ministers or gurus. Instead, go directly to the source. Talk directly to Jesus and ask Him about Himself. If you do so with the utmost sincerity, you will not be dissapointed.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. -Hebrews 11:6

Know Him who sees.

Mbgrafix 17:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems complete... moving on to other things — have a good life! —WikiLen 22:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism (off-topic)

Criticism, why i'd love to. However criticizing this motivational video is as pointless as an athiest trying to convince a theist there's no afterlife; it is pointless. If people want to believe they're gonna believe despite logic or proof. They could prove 100% that we evolved from ooze but people would still believe in god and afterlife. But, i'll indulge anyway. This is basically a motivational video with a little twist. The twist of course is unproven, unsubstantiated wishful thinking. You can attract things by thinking about them and feeling the way you would if you already had them. Prove it, you can't. It's easy for rich people to say they visualized it and it happened. It's already happened. What about all the people that did the same and failed? Of course there are going to be people that practice this and actually get what they want. It's called a coincidence. Prove it to yourself. Do the million dollar test. Visualize it, feel as though you already have it. And watch the months pass. It won't happen unless you physically make it happen. Physical actions make things happen, nothing else. I hate to say it, but it's weak minded people that believe in this sort of thing. However, i do believe in energy. Everything is made of energy. But you can't control anything but your body. When you die, your energy goes back into the universe, but your memories, and what is you is gone. When it comes to this stuff, no one can prove it either way, but you have to go with what's more plausible, and what we already know about science. Not what we don't know. The video does at one point concede that some action might have to be taken, bascially contradicting itself. Anyone catch this? So now we're down to positive thinking and action. Hmm, do we really need a video to tell us that's what we need? What a secret! Where the video goes wrong is saying that you'll get what you want guaranteed. The parodoxical nature of this is interesting. It's just like religion. It would be chaos if no one believed in god/afterlife because everyone would break the law, seeing as there's no punishment. So even if there's no god, religion is good to keep order. (Hence the reason it was created, or should I say frabricated. Control and money) This video is the same. It's good because it will keep you positive, but it's rubbish. Actions make things happen; nothing else. prove it to yourself. It's easy, do the million dollar test. Don't count on an afterlife either. You should live as if this is your only life,... because it probably is. If i've posted this in the wrong place, please don't delete it, move it. --DJBryson 17:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this just a libereal-christian attempt at doing a Dan Brown in reverse? The listed scientists and scholars may have all believed in the power of positive attitude, but that is hardly evidence of a clandestine "Secret" society hiding in the shadows preserving the truth. All one has to do it look at any of the Bhuddist writings and you can find the Law of Attraction (perhaps called something else) everywhere. The whole thing is nothing more than a marketing gimmic in Dan Brown style. One would be better off reading the 7-Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. Granted, the title of the book is a marketing gimic in itself, but at least the content delivers.

Things I Wish Would Happen

1. People to get smarter and to accept responsibility for things they can change through action 2. Opra to be revealed as a walking marketing plug 3. 'The Secret' to be universally recognized as an infomercial 4. People to recognize the environmental limits of the environment 5. General acceptance of the "law of circumstance" where good things tend to happen to white people with credit cards who live in industrialized nations with a massive industrial/military complex --154.5.70.188 04:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)