Talk:The Revival Fellowship

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Contents 1 protection? 2 Edit warring 3 cultweb/cults affiliation 4 Eye Gouging 5 Balance in the article 6 Community 7 Logo 8 Nontrinitarian 9 CULT references 10 Moving forward 10.1 Criticism section

[edit] protection?

I notice that there is a lot of reverting back and forward on this page. I think there should be links to pro-Revival Fellowship links (www.trf.org.au) and sites like rc.cultweb.org which share the alternate point of view on this very controversial group. Also suggest that someone seek informal mediation from the cabal (see help pages) who can freeze anonymous edits on the page and add anti-vandalism protection. Like many, I believe that the Revival Fellowship is a dangerous group, but would encourage both sides of the issue to fully express their opinions.Seldon-au

The fact remains that referencing a blog or opinion page is not fair or balanced. And a few individuals are attempting to make this group seem more controversial that it really is. They are a Christian denomination and the Cult references and pages are not scholarly articles and therefore have no standing in the article. It is best to keep it simple and we will continue to delete cult references as unfounded. At some time we will have to have a mediator involved if this continues. Anonymous people should not be allowed to have editing rights on this page. Revival42 21:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

Oh - btw - the cultweb.org site has been taken down so referencing it is useless. I believe this was after litigation was threatened and the site found to be promoting hatred and carrying many slanderous statements. Revival42 21:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

As of 25th of March 2007 the cultweb.org site has resumed operation. There was no litigation towards it. The site was down temporarily due to financial reasons.

[edit] Edit warring

I notice there appears to be a lot of edit warring on this article. I just want to remind both parties of the three-revert rule.↔NMajdan•talk 19:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cultweb/cults affiliation

There is no affiliation with cultweb or any other cult discussion forums/organizations. These are truly based only on self opinions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Picheriko (talk • contribs) 11:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

Regardless of affiliation, many, many ex-members and experts characterise RF as a cult/cult-like organisation, and it's important that the Wikipedia article reflects all viewpoints. Please read through the policies, particularly that on neutral point of view. Thanks. 81.105.176.121 13:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I just read your NPOV... i'll quote you: ""We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.

By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.""

References to cults, etc are OPINION.. Not FACT.. How about we state facts then.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.228.246 (talk) 17:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

What is being reported here, in the Wikipedia article, is that some people regard RF as a cult - the references you removed establish this as fact. The other information you removed is also verified - if you disagree with the teachings of RF (or don't know of the details of its establishment) you should discuss your issues with your pastor. Natgoo 18:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

regard = opinion. Fact is, it is a Christian based demonination. As mentioned before, if I believe an organisation to "suck" or dislike their service, I would not regard them as a "bad customer service organization" when infact, all they do is sell washing machines. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.228.246 (talk) 18:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Yes, which is what the article is stating. The article does NOT say that RF is a cult, but that some people regard it as one, which is fact. Natgoo 18:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Look at Criticism of Christianity. Its a whole article dedicated to information that criticizes the religion. But it is all verifiable. Same thing here.↔NMajdan•talk•EditorReview 21:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

regarding some people believing this is a cult. Some people believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny too. And reference a blog, or website that has no intellectual standing should not happen and will be deleted. Commission a white paper, have it peer reviewed and published in a reputable journal and perhaps then you will have something that you can add. And why waste your time with this. Isn't the catholic church the largest cult in the world? Do they have cult references on their article?Revival42 16:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)Revival42

Thanks for your input, but please don't remove others' comments from talk pages. Why do you object to the characterisation of the group as a cult by some people being included in the article? The Wikipedia article doesn't say that the group is a cult, but that some people regard it as one. Regardless of its 'truth', I feel the criticism is valid information about some people's feelings about the group and should be included in a balanced, encyclopaedic article. The first time I heard the RC (and please, don't argue that it doesn't count, the groups have a shared history and identical doctrine and dogma) referred to as a cult was in a Time magazine article in the early 80s - I can't search the Asia-Pacific edition archives from here but I will try and source it when I can. The references provided are valid for the section as it is written. Natgoo 18:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, all.

I have written several articles that appear at a website that is critical of RF teachings (www.pleaseconsider.info), but I have never referred to the RF as a cult.

I am currently a doctoral candidate, my research subject being the theology of the RF and the RCI. The writing of my dissertation is currently under way; my research is factually based, and conforms to standard academic ethical policies and procedures. Would any references that I care to submit meet the evidentiary requirements of Wikipedia?

Regards,

Ian

Sure, Ian. Submit any changes you have in mind and see if they're accepted by the community. Cheers Natgoo 14:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eye Gouging

The story of eye gouging is totally irrelevant to the group "The Revival Fellowship". Please refrain from posting stories based on rumour or here-say. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Picheriko (talk • contribs) 09:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree. The story is only substantiated by a message board posting, which is not verifiable. Until a decent reference can be established the story should be kept out of the article. Natgoo 19:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balance in the article

There has been plenty of edit-warring over this article recently. I suggest that editors stop removing valid, verified information and instead start adding information to provide balance and start working towards an NPOV article. Natgoo 19:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Some great work so far, seldon-au. Thanks. I think the reference to the eye-gouging story is still a little shaky - was there any independent media coverage at the time? I'll see what I can find... Natgoo 09:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The page as it currently stands (23 Feb 2007), is terribly non-neutral and is more of an 'anti-The Revival Fellowship' page. I recently did some editing, which was considered vandalism, and the changes were obviously reverted.

Why is it that unverified negative statements are allowed, yet verifiable neutral statements are not?

The RF is not King James Only. This is verified here

The RF is not nontrinitarian.

The church was formed in 1995, so why is there a reference to a 1984 RCI magazine?

Why does this page not allow The Revival Fellowship's core beliefs to be shown? Instead it mentions Pyramidology, British-Israel and Bible numerics which are considered to be peripheral topics of interest. The core beliefs are verified here Tangools 08:28, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The core beliefs have been added and a correction to the salvation message. I think it is best to keep the article simple. They are a Christian group, have a set of beliefs, came out of the RCI and continue to worship and preach their message worldwide. Revival42 21:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

I think the article is much better now. Nice and simple, and relatively unbiased. Thanks to everyone's contributions. Tangools

Agreed! Article is fantastic, thanks for everyone's contribution and constant attention.

There seems to be plenty of edits with people adding cult references to the page. Revival fellowship is not a cult and should not be linked to cult discussion groups that have no affiliation.

There is the issue of the Second coming prophesies. These were done in 1984-85 by Lloyd Longfield of the Revival Centres. There is some thought that this article was written 10 years before Revival Fellowship was even formed. Perhaps this could be deleted and maybe a note to view it on the Revival Centres page? Revival42 05:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

The Second coming prophesies definitely appears out of place. It looks to be a feeble effort to discredit The Revival Fellowship.

If this was an article about 'Australians' and there was a section about 'Anti-baby views' with a quote of Queen Victoria 'I don't dislike babies, though I think very young ones rather disgusting.', it would be seen as out-of-place. The quote was said by an Englishwoman not an Australian, and it was said before Australia was even founded...

But Australia was founded (colonized) by English, so Australia is pretty much 'part' of England right? And England's leader once said this quote way back in the 1800s.

This is the same poor logic that claims 'The Revival fellowship was founded by ex RCI members, so the RF is pretty much 'part' of RCI, and an RCI leader once said Jesus might return on such and such a date way back in 1984.

Absolutely irrelevant. Tangools 12:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the RCI article as irrelevant to this article. It is still available on the RCI article, but since Revival Fellowship is not part of RCI it does not fit here. Revival42 17:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

It has been generally agreed that the RCI article on second coming does not fit here. Revival Fellowship is not part of RCI.

[edit] Community

Josh, I may do a bit of an edit on your addition to the community section. We want to keep the article simple and not overplay it. Revival42 14:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)Revival42

[edit] Logo

Could someone add "The Revival Fellowship" logo? thanks

[edit] Nontrinitarian

I've added again nontrinitarian to the introduction - it's important RF doctrine that the Holy Spirit is not God is not Jesus Christ, clearly outlined in their teachings. Natgoo 18:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted non-trinitarian - it is obvious that you are trying to discredit the church, but the church does teach and believe in the trinity. Not sure what your goal is, but we will continue this as long as you like. Who hurt you so bad that you feel you have to work so hard to hurt this church and its members. They love the Lord and want to see people saved. What is your beef and why not let it go and do some work for the kingdom on your own?

How is noting that the church doesn't believe in the trinity discrediting anybody? The statement of belief states 'Jesus Christ is the son of God' - if you have difficulty accepting that you need to discuss your issues with your pastor. Natgoo 08:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Natgoo - I don't remember seeing you at the Pastor's meeting, or at any of the council meetings.

What on earth does that have to do anything? Basic reading comprehension demonstrates that the RF follows nontrinitarian doctrine (even described as pre-Nicene by several pastors). Why do you feel that this is negative and an attempt to discredit the RF? Please try to articulate your objection to the inclusion of this information, so that we can all understand your feelings and work towards a consensus in this matter.Natgoo 20:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Natgoo - the point is that I have attended these meetings and am a lot more plugged in to the RF doctrine and teachings than you. Debating the trinity doctrine is way more complex than is called for in this article. The word "trinity" doesn't even appear in the bible. You are wrong in your understanding of RF doctrine. By why waste time debating over a word. Officially RF is trinitarian. If it is such a big deal to you, I will raise the point at the next Pastor's meeting. Revival42 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)Revival42

Please do, as the group's statement of belief and teachings contradict your assertion, and should be reviewed if no longer true. As we can only work with verifiable information (are the minutes of the pastors' meetings publicly available? Please provide them if so), and this is a central part of RF doctrine, I feel the information should be included. I agree that the trinity doctrine is complex, but RF's response to it has never been - it has always, and continues, to claim that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one with God, which is the central tenet of the trinity. Natgoo 21:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You are wasting your time - we will revert this non-trinitarian reference. The debate is too complex for your attempt to label the church in this category when clearly it is not. Revival42 22:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

[edit] CULT references

I'm sick of having to restore this page due to cult references.

The revival fellowship has no affiliation with cults. People have ideas that the RF is a cult, but this can be said about every church. So perhaps you all need to update every other churces wiki reference and wack in a cult link.

See my point? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.149.31.194 (talk) 12:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Frankly, no. This talk page is for discussion of this article - if you feel that other articles should contain additional information please discuss your feelings on the talk pages for those articles. If you are 'sick' of anything (although I don't understand if you are, as you have only made one edit to the article, which was today) I suggest you carefully read and absorb the Wikipedia policies and guidelines on ownership of articles and neutral point of view, take a deep breath and work on a different article for a while. I also suggest you carefully read and absorb the policy on civility, as your edit summary and tone are quite rude.

You haven't yet stated your objection to the inclusion of the information in the article, just that it isn't true (which is irrelevant to its inclusion in the article, as it is a subjective determination). Please read through the policy on building consensus and start trying to do so. Natgoo 20:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of taking a breath. Natgoo, there are no Cult references even on the Revival Centres International page. I can see from your profile that you must have been shunned and quite hurt sometime in the past. From reading your personal page, you come from a very bias background. I think it may have clouded your neutrality and ask you to move to another article. If you can find a verifiable, non-opinion based source (a web page set up by an ex-member doesn't count), maybe we can talk. For now - give it a rest for a week and think about why you feel to the need to do what you are doing.Revival42 22:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)revival42

It's simple really - I'm interested in building a factual, balanced encyclopaedia article, and this criticism is important to that aim. You have totally misrepresented my personal experiences and viewpoint, not that it matters - I have only inserted factual, verified information. Again I ask you to please articulate your objections with the view to building consensus, and if you have comments about the information in other articles please discuss those on the appropriate talk page. Also please sign your comments, and if you have replied to someone else's comment (or made edits when you weren't logged in) please indicate that you have done so. Natgoo 21:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You personal bias is important, since you are not really writing a clear balanced article. I have asked nicely that you leave your cult reference off, since a) it is not verifiable, b) simple untrue. c) very opinionated. Please go added your reference to Revival Centres, The Roman Catholic Church, etc. I don't see anything on these sites, nor in the counter cult space either. And sorry, I came back to sign my last comment, but forgot. Revival42 22:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC) revival42

[edit] Moving forward

Can we please work together now to improve this article? It needs work - the grammar is dreadful in places and it lacks a criticism section. If we can't reach consensus between us we can ask for input from other editors. Natgoo 10:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeking unprotection for this article. I'd like to place an unbalanced template at the top, to attract the attention of other editors and start to generate some discussion (at the moment it feels as though the only people who have interest in this article are church members, which is reflected in the discussion on this talk page and the lack of criticism in the article). There is lots of critical information available - some important links are: pleaseconsider.info, rc.cultweb.net, the caic document archive (which is a fascinating resource) and the RC discussion boards. Natgoo 12:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

Okay, how about something along these lines:

The Revival Fellowship has been heavily criticised, mainly by ex-members, for its theology and doctrine. Theological criticism centres on the requirement for speaking in tongues and the group's strong focus on Acts 2:38^[1], while doctrinal criticism centres on the Revival Fellowship's dogmatic approach to community and fellowship, in particular the requirement that members minimise their interactions with the 'world' (excluding evangelism) and its practice of disfellowshipping members for minor trangsressions and minor criticism of church leaders, and the extent to which the oversight control the lives of its members^[2]. An internet messageboard has been established for dicsussion of the group's practices, and may be found here.

Natgoo 14:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)