Talk:The Powers That Be (Buffyverse)

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[edit] The PTB versus the First Evil

A big question is why the writers didn’t forge a stronger relationship between the PTB and the First Evil. (For the sake of some continuity, we’ll leave all that Jasmine nonsense out of this.) Essentially, the PTB acted like the whitest of hats, and the producers could have easily made the PTB the “First Good.” The phrase “powers that be” is itself a euphemism, and without taking the series literally, it could easily be a euphemism for God—along the lines of “hashem.” Furthermore, the “Powers” are referred to with the pronoun “they,” which also leaves room for an undetermined number of gods, and certainly doesn’t exclude a single god.

This is a problem because the whole of the Buffyverse hinges on the fact that only humans can be truly “good.” Demons can work on the side of the good and be specific “agents” or “champions” of good, but if studied carefully, it seems that good demons are more “lawful good” than humans. Demons need to preserve balance because if chaos were ever unleashed, all existence would be threatened.

Vampires don’t want to extinguish human life, because they’re parasites and without an overwhelming number of hosts, they’d die-off. This works out well in the Buffyverse because most vamps are pretty stupid and careless, so the balance is never really threatened. Big Bads like Angelus provide an even bigger check than the white-hats. In “Release” (A 4x14), Angelus kills the Beast and ends the eternal night because it had created the kind of chaos that’s bad for the balance. (Angelus was disgusted by the vampire free-for-all that LA had become.) In “Forgiving” (A 3x17), the Conduit to the Senior Partners (aka the little girl, aka the solar totem Mesektet) mentions the original nature of Sahjhan’s race—she says she loves the trouble they caused, but hated the chaos. In “That Old Gang of Mine,” (A 3x03), Team Angel had to stop Gunn’s old crew, not because they were killing demons, but because they were killing neutral demons (including a “balance” demon). In the Buffyverse, white-hats kill black-hats, and black-hats only.

Having this groundwork established reinforces the fact that the PTB were probably never “good” in the white-hat sense. Nevertheless, their archenemy would surely still be the First Evil. In the BTVS episode “Amends” (B 3x10), the First Evil claims that it brought Angel back from hell for the purpose of turning evil and killing Buffy. Even though the First is persuasive, Angel resists and it goads him into trying to commit suicide via the sunrise. When daybreak arrives, the sun is occulted by a mysterious snowfall. This is not something the First can do, so this deus ex machina is quite literal—some great power is watching out for Angel. Since Angel Season 1 begins with Angel’s introduction to the PTB and how they’ve have plans for him, it’s quite probable it was they who brought him back from hell and saved him with the snow.

“Amends” sets the stage for an ultimate battle of good and evil, with Angel as a pivotal piece, and the Shanshu prophecy reinforces it. And yet, the Big Bads are human lawyers. This is a cute way for the producers to have Big Bads that are actually small nobodies, and can last season after season because white-hats cannot kill humans. Even when we finally meet some of the senior partners, they’re not huge, ultimate evils—they’re just an assortment of rich demons. Essentially we have the Powers That Be in one corner, and a collection of little bads in the other.

Is there any good reason the producers, holding the last viable strands of the Buffyverse in their hands, would do this?--hypercritic 05:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

TPTB are not necessarily 'good', it seems that most of them encountered on Angel seasons 1-3 took a more neutral stance, trying to maintain the balance between good and evil rather than overcome evil. Jasmine was an exception who tried to have a more involved role in overcoming evil, at the same time that the First Evil was preparing to make its move. -- Paxomen 12:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, where do you stand on the First Evil/Lilah issue from "Salvage" (A 4x13)?--hypercritic 05:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Please keep discussion on this page limited to article content. This isn't a message board. I've removed the speculative info in the article regarding Lilah's appearance as being attributed to the powers or the first evil. This has not been verified and cannot be inlcluded in the article. If someone can find a reference verifying the info, feel free to revert.--CPitt76 23:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The First Evil makes no appearance in the Angel series and the PTB make no appearance in the Buffy series. The greatest extent of First Evil in Angel is a woman that tries to kill Faith in jail and it has no bearing on the story. For this reason, there is no mention of the First Evil in this article. The PTB and the First Evil are strikingly unrelated compared to other Buffy-Angel crossovers.

I agree and ask that people stop trying to make a link between the two in this article. Today I had to remove another mention of the first evil. Speculation cannot be included, even if it is worded as "widely accepted". Before anyone else adds this again, please familiarize yourself with wikipedia's standards. CPitt76 14:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)