Talk:The Pilgrim's Progress

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit) It would be helpful since this article has "top" importance for someone knowledgeable to prescribe ways in which we can make this a "GA" or an "A" article.--Drboisclair 13:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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Contents 1 Cover 2 Christian is known as Graceless before he is Christian 3 The Second Part 4 Length 5 Adaption 6 Conventicle Act 7 Some new pictures 8 Reinsertion of the Wikiquote material 9 Criticism? 10 Christian thinks that he sees the shining light 11 First edition image provided

[edit] Cover

This is a seminal work in Western Civilization and deserves an illustration from one of its many editions over the years. drboisclair 23:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christian is known as Graceless before he is Christian

Christian is not known as "Pilgrim"; however, in the film version made in recent years and in "Dangerous Journey" this is something that is stated. However, in the book we read the following: "THE PORTER [Watchful of House Beautiful]: What is your name?/CHRISTIAN: My name is now Christian, but my name at the first was Graceless: I came of the race of Japheth, whom God will persuade to dwell in the tents of Shem. Gen. 9:27."

At the beginning we read: "OBSTINATE: What, said Obstinate, and leave our friends and our comforts behind us! /CHRISTIAN: Yes, said Christian, (for that was his name,)"

The "conversion" comes about when Evangelist tells Christian about fleeing from the "wrath to come." At that point, right at the beginning of the narrative he is called "Christian": he is never called "Pilgrim" as he is in the movie version or in "Dangerous Journey". "Conversion experience" is not an accurate description for what happens to Christian, although, his being encountered by Evangelist, who tells him to "flee from the wrath to come" causes him to leave home, which is the Old Testament concept of repentance, i.e. "turning around" (Hebrew: "shuv"). drboisclair 23:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Second Part

In one section of this article, there are quotes from a person who says "I have not read of a man who gave Jesus but one grote". I beg to differ with him. The New Testament gives the account of Jesus' disciples--they followed him wherever he went and did many things for him. Someone wasn't reading the Gospels--or any other books in the New Testament, for that matter--properly. Scorpionman 19:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Scorpionman, I would also beg to differ, but this is what Bunyan thought. He might have a point in that as far as I know of the New Testament, it is only reported that the women like Mary Magdalene, et. al. gave Jesus and His disciples money to support them. Bunyan is making a point that it was not reported that men gave any money to Jesus while women did. drboisclair 21:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Length

This article is too long and goes into too much depth about characters and locations, while only devoting a few paragraphs to basic plot summary. Wikipedia is not Cliff's Notes, though perhaps that could be a spin-off project. Could someone suggest a way of moving the non-encyclopedic content to a resource other than Wikipedia and providing it as an external link? --LostLeviathan 21:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The characters and locations are of interest because so many of them are used as allusions. Someone looking for Pilgrims Progress is often going to want Mister Stand-fast or the slough of despond or Vanity Fair. The plot is straight-forward; most of the information is in the characters and locations. Still, many of these characters and locations couldn't support an independent article. I think we have a good balance now. It's possible that the plot synopsis could be moved nearer the top of the page, if readers would find that more convenient. Tom Harrison ^(talk) 21:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I second Mr. Harrison's suggestions. Length should be no problem to subjects that are of great historical moment. Wikipedia is also a source of information. Why decrease the information it offers to the reader? Why can't Wikipedia be what we the internet users in the world want to make of it. The openness with which people are invited to edit it suggests that people influenced by their culture are allowed to shape it for what it is--admittedly, within reason. drboisclair 10:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Adaption

Warner Oland gave his screen debut in an early adaption of "The Pilgrim's Progress". See imdb. --Stilfehler 14:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conventicle Act

While I agree with the editor's characterization of this act as unjust or with the characterization of John Bunyan's imprisonment as being unjust, it would be not NPOV to have it in the main text. I'm sorry that I felt it should be reverted.--Drboisclair 16:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some new pictures

I added some photos from my 1778 London edition. The map is particularly fun. I've not seen that in any of the modern editions. Hope you enjoy them.

Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 22:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reinsertion of the Wikiquote material

It is not redundant to have these special quotations with an inter Wiki link. I ask that the link remain.--Drboisclair 05:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism?

No real balance in this article, surely there is some criticism for this work! :) Zidel333 21:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

In the 1950s a survey found that readers thought that it was the most boring book they had ever read. It is considered to be a precursor to the novel. It was written by a poor, lower class "tinker." It is a timeless classic. Perhaps critiquing it would be like critiquing the Mona Lisa. The early literary critics had nothing but adulation for it. Finding some negative evaluation would be an interesting find. It is interesting that in 1913 a James Baldwin rewrote it without any allusions to religion in what he entitled John Bunyan's Dream Story.--Drboisclair 19:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Drboisclair -- critiquing this book would be very problematical. For one thing, it's more than 350 years old, and doesn't really fit into modern genres of fiction. It's format is totally different to a modern novel, and rather more like the script of a play than anything else. It was written for a very specific purpose, and within the much more religious world of its time. If you were to level negative criticisms against it, you'd basically be commenting on the mid 17th Century society of England and the way Protestants saw themselves. Modern readers might find the way the Catholic Church is portrayed as rather insensitive, and the roles of men, women, and children are very different to their roles nowadays. But it's a book of its time, like the Bible or Satyricon or Huckleberry Finn, and bound to be different to modern books. I'd suggest at best you could highlight the way different social groups were portrayed, and perhaps try to explain why Bunyan was critical of, for example, the Pope or the middle classes or the judiciary. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 23:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christian thinks that he sees the shining light

"Then said Evangelist, pointing with his finger over a very wide Field, Do you see yonder Wicket-gate? [Mat. 7] The Man said, No. Then said the other, Do you see yonder shining light? [Psalm 119.105; 2 Pet. 1.19.] He said, I think I do. Then said Evangelist, Keep that light in your eye, and go up directly thereto, so shalt thou see the Gate; at which when thou knockest, it shall be told thee what thou shalt do."

It is because of this information that I have indicated that Christian thinks he sees the "shining light."--Drboisclair 04:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First edition image provided

I have provided an image of the title page of Pilgrim's Progress's first edition, and I would like to begin improving this article for GA and A rating.--Drboisclair 13:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)