Talk:The Ninth Gate

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[edit] "Unpublished" Chapter

While not directly related to the film, "Perez-Reverte’s book contains numerous literary references and a subplot concerning Corso’s investigation into an unpublished chapter of The Three Musketeers" is incorrect in that the chapter, as written in the book, is actually chapter 42, The Anjou Wine (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Three_Musketeers/Chapter_42), which was part of the novel. Shane Lin 20:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Country of production

(The original poster left no headline. I made up one. --Netizen 10:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC))

Why is this "a Spanish/French mystery movie" rather than "a U.S./Spanish/French mystery movie" (as listed at IMDB)? The present version leaves the impression that it might not have been filmed in English, and it was. - Nunh-huh 03:21, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I didn't write that, but come on, Roman Polanski can't even enter US soil without being arrested, so to say that it's US/Spanish/French is a bit rich don't you think? - Gkhan 23:33, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Corso and Lucifer?

I don't think it is appropriate to have the paragraph about certain people believing Corso to be Lucifer in the same section as the story description. The fact that this is so has no injunction upon the story nor is it referred to in the book, therefore it can only be observed as a generel opinoin. Just my two cents. Piecraft 12:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I don't understand what you mean. You're not using the word "injunction" correctly. The idea is certainly valid and warrants consideration. I think it's aptly placed as this is a short article. - 27 October 2005 Reason.
I agree with Piecraft's suggestion, neither in the book nor in the film is it ever suggested that Corso is Lucifer. There is no verification or notablitity for these claims, therefore they have no standing within the article. If anything the Girl is referenced as the demonic presence of Lucifer. And I believe you should look up injunction yourself - the sentence makes perfect sense to me. 82.155.1.151 01:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't understand the word "injunction" in the given context either. (Then again English is not my first language.) To me "implication" or "implications" would make more sense. I've enclosed links to the definitons for both words. But I don't think we should get too involved in further discussion on that.
Regarding the "Corso is Lucifer"-theory itself, one thing I can contribute is tidbits from the Roman Polanski audio-commentary for the Ninth Gate DVD.
It's not all that enlightening but he states that the girl is probably Satan or a messenger of his. I don't recall him mentioning Corso/Johnny Depp as being Satan. For what it's worth.
Links:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=injunction
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=implication
Cheers, Netizen 01:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The film which the main article is actually about, is not the book, but something based on the book, inspired by the book. And in this film, you can see an interpretation of Corso as Satan being the protaginist, playing along with the characters, leading them in a merry game of harm, to the castle, where his face goes all funny when having relations(out of wedlock?) with some strange glowing eyed woman(probably the real devil in the film), and when Balkan asks for the devil to appear and there be Corso, above him, watching all. Corso as the devil in the film, would be a fun interpretation, as he then is just acting to the other characters jibes and blows. A small section with the possible theories about this would be fitting, as the film does play on suspense and mystery quite a bit. Book M 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Theories = speculation, and at the very least, original research. Wikipedia makes it very clear that these are not elements that should be a part of its entries. Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought
  • "The idea is certainly valid and warrants consideration. I think it's aptly placed as this is a short article" stated Reason above, i agree, forget theories, how about a one line of text in the 'trivia' section regarding Corso as occaisionally being referred as the devil, forget the DVD's director's commentary as well, we the audience, are the other side of life of art works, and I demand our thoughts be rendered as 'trivia'(laughs). I will not be adding Corso as devil for now, but i will think of an appropriate sentence for this, which surely is as valid as any other thing written in the article, apart from technical details and synopsis. Corso as Devil is not an uncommon reaction to the film, though the moments in the film where one thinks this - are really those fun moments of false climax or homage to culprit deferment used in mystery fiction,- and THAT can be placed in the trivia section as an audience trick of the film. Not a theory, not original research, but audience trivia.

Book M 11:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe i will be cluttering up the article anytime soon, as i find most of it as a bad use, in particular the 'reaction' section. Book M 11:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book care

Having read the novel and seen the film, I'm relatively certain that the issue of lack of concern for proper book-handling procedures is not symbolic of anything nor otherwise relevant to the plot. Its addition in this article seems more like the work of an over-diligent book preservationist than anything else. Unless anyone objects, I'll remove it.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.196.46.237 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 4 October 2005. (See diff)

  • To the contrary, I'd say it's definitely symbolic, especially when you consider how the Baroness and (in the beginning as evidenced by his library) Balkan treat their books compared to all the rest. It's as though the film goes out of it's way to show you how terribly the several of the 'experts' care for the books. Interpret as you will, but it certainly is intentional and not incidental. - October 27 2005 Reason.
  • in the book, Corso, ostensibly a rare-book expert, chain-smokes around all the books and even in the Ungern Foundation library. No attention is ever called to this, and seems to be accepted as normal behavior by the other characters. If anything it may be a statement on the very wealthy, as nearly every character in the story is either a book dealer or extremely rich! brain 07:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mystery in the engravings

  • To many minor edits... i will use the sand box next time

Chow!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidf2 (talk • contribs) 05:03, 14 May 2006. (See diff)

[edit] Spoiler Warning?

I would do it myself but I'm not sure how. Seeing as how this film has many mysteries to it a spoiler warning would be lovely.

-Adam


Oops! Now I see it. Maybe it should just be more visible. I'll leave that up to others to decide.

-Adam

[edit] Speculation/theory cleanup

While an interesting read, one of the prime tenets of Wikipedia that unsourced, uncited speculation should not be part of its articles. There is quite a lot of it here, including pretty much all of sections 3-6. I'll working on trimming it out over the next few days.---Jackel 03:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

For posterity, what follows is the speculative content I removed. I also removed the images, as they seemed only relevant to the reved content. Like I said, interesting, but not germaine to an encyclopedia entry. ---Jackel 15:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The author of this material should, due to the material's worth, place it on the web somewhere and 'external link' it.

Book M 11:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mystery Elements

The movie offers plenty of riddles to the careful viewer. There is, of course, the main riddle concerning the book's nine engravings/Printmaking, and the murders, but there are more.

  • Balkan claims only one of three known copies of the book is authentic and the engravings form a Satanic riddle
  • Torchia published the book in 1666 – an ominous number – while the story is set in the year 1999, the year with the same 1 (one thousand) precursor and the following three numbers (namely, 666) upside down, 333 years later (add the numbers and you get nine, again).
  • The enigmatic girl following Corso

The mystery of the missing engraving

  • How does the missing illustrative engraving find its way onto the top of the booksellers cabinet?
  • Did the booksellers modify The Nine Gates of the Kingdom of Shadows or omit this engraving before selling it to Telfer?
  • How does The Girl know the missing engraving is in the vacant bookshop?
Balkan explains his plan to Corso
Balkan explains his plan to Corso

[edit] Speculation about the true nature of Corso and The Girl

Corso is a book lover, but he shows little care for them, even the most valuable one: The Nine Gates of the Kingdom of Shadows, not wearing gloves, carrying the book in a shabby bag, leaving it unguarded, drinking whiskey and smoking while handling it. Why is that? And what's in a name, Corso? In Italian, Corso means 'the path' or 'course' and where might that path lead?

Who is the nameless, mysterious girl (Emmanuelle Seigner) who happens to turn up wherever Corso goes? The girl is shown on the missing page that Corso received at the end of the movie in Spain. The girl is shown on a creature with multiple heads, and she could be the Whore of Babylon, who travels on a beast with seven heads.

[edit] Corso as Lucifer

Satan, as drawn by Gustave Doré, in John Milton's Paradise Lost.
Satan, as drawn by Gustave Doré, in John Milton's Paradise Lost.

It has been suggested that Corso is actually Lucifer himself, lost in the human realm. (In this theory, he may well have been forced to reincarnate into mortal body after mortal body, and/or may have lost his memory of who he is, perhaps as a result of his association with the book's author, or the works of some heaven-following sorcerer. The "memory loss" theory is the likelier of the two.) The nine engravings in the book is a popcorn trail so that he may find his way back. The Girl would be one of the "helpers" of Lucifer referred to by Balkan in the beginning of the movie. There are aspects to the film that might seem to support this:

  • "The Girl" is always acting as an assistant or helpmate to Corso; even when her actions or words are strange or she disappears, she is invariably acting in his best interests, much as a retainer might to her liege.
  • Throughout the film, Corso never reveals exactly what he believes on the subject of belief. In addition, he seems to demonstrate some kind of awareness, even if it is a latent one, of the invisible forces at work around him; nothing really seems to catch him by surprise, not even the events that horrify him.
  • One of the driving ideas in the film is that the book(s) can be used to summon the devil. Corso appears before each individual who owns or has owned the book, albeit in a form unrecognized by the infernally devout; in a sense, as his passing before each of them was responsible for their demises, the argument could be made that he was effectively passing judgment on each of them (albeit apparently unknowingly) having found them wanting. (One possible exception to this might be Fargas, who was not a diabolist as the others were, merely a book lover. Of course, he died anyway, which proves that even tangential association with the book is hazardous to one's health....). This is not dissimilar to the fashion in which, according to the Bible, Jesus walked among men but was not recognized as the son of God by those in power.
  • Corso is seen to chain-smoke, and sports a goatee and mustache. These traits are often visual shorthand for a character who is villainous, or at least an antihero. This would fit with his character's personality traits: snide, sarcastic, and unscrupulous, yet oddly charismatic and somewhat noble. Popular portrayals of Lucifer in recent media often portray him thus.

[edit] "The Girl" as Lucifer or a minion thereof

Melancholia_I, print by Albrecht Dürer, considered by many to be one of the most important printmakers ever.
Melancholia_I, print by Albrecht Dürer, considered by many to be one of the most important printmakers ever.

A more common theory is that The Girl is Satan, summoned by being called upon so regularly by worshipers. (All three book collectors seem strangely disconnected - Baroness Kessler is writing a book on the Devil; Telfer's widow is part of the cult mentioned that uses the book and holds orgies to call the Devil; Balkan in the end is explicitly shown to believe that he has cracked some code to become one with Lucifer.)

Corso, initially an unwitting accomplice in the summoning, also becomes as obsessed as the other three, except that he is the one ultimately destined to unite with the Devil.

The mysterious Girl character, who has a tendency to appear at crucial moments in the film, thus giving Corso the initial impression that she is working for Balkan and keeping tabs on him, assists Corso because she is the Devil who wants him to decipher the clues and convert him to one of her people.

In the train scene in Europe, where Corso again sees the mysterious Girl and asks her name, a subtle hint that Corso is being groomed for unification with the Devil occurs: when the Girl finds out Corso's name, she laughs a little and tells him that it is an odd name. Corso replies that the name is Italian and means 'run'. She then tells him that he "doesn't look like a runner, more the quiet type".

In fact, Corso is more commonly known as the Italian word for path or course, not run, and the initial engraving in the series of nine plates speaks of 'traveling in silence, by a long and circuitous route', all metaphors for Corso's name, his quiet demeanor, and the journey (both figuratively and literally) that he is now on.

Furthermore, the two Spanish booksellers that Corso visits seem to disappear after their one meeting with Corso. Scaffolding crashes down behind him the moment he leaves the shop, suggesting perhaps that they were minions of Lucifer, planted to just subtly nudge him in the right direction.

Indeed, Corso receives a warning from the Spanish booksellers that danger could descend from above if he "strays too far" - as happens when the scaffolding crashes with Corso far from home and venturing physically (or metaphysically) into unknown territory.

Later, during a scuffle with the platinum-haired black man hired by Lady de St. Martin to obtain Balkan's copy of the Nine Gates, the Girl seems to fly or float to his rescue.

And later, in the chateau of St. Martin, after being held at gun-point, they kill the black man, largely in self defence. After Corso brutally beats him, a violence we had not imagined him capable of before, the Girl smiles eerily and remarks "I didn't know you had it in you" - an odd response to a bare-handed murder, but certainly a triumphant moment for the Devil in having succeeded in turning over a hitherto good man to his/her own side.

Following this, she again smiles eerily when Corso throws on a black gown and pentagram necklace to attend, incognito, the satanic ritual in the St Martin Chateau. Corso tells the Girl, "I'm going down", a metaphor for his descent into hell.

Throughout the movie, the Girl's eyes hold a spark of the sinister, the way they shine and hypnotise.

Also, when The Girl steals a car, it is a red Dodge Viper. This is a significant clue, as not only does the bright red, American car "stick out" in the European setting of the movie, but also as a viper is a type of snake, as Lucifer in Genesis was depicted, and the vibrant red color is a fitting color for the devil.

The nine illustrative engravings in the Nine Gates seem to mirror events that really happen throughout the film. In the last engraving, the Whore of Babylon or the Devil with a face just like The Girl's is astride a Hydra like creature while a castle is ablaze with some unearthly light in the distance behind her. Eventually, Corso and The Girl make love just in front of the blazing castle with The Girl/Devil astride a fully internally demonized Corso who, in the last shot, after the ultimate sexual submission to the Devil has finally obtained the metaphorical key into the ninth gate...the gate to Hell. If this theory is true, then Corso has doubtless earned himself a position of honor in Hell, perhaps as The Girl's consort.

[edit] The idea that Lucifer, although a central character, does not physically appear in this film

"The sleep of Reason creates monsters", etching and aquatint by Francisco Goya.
"The sleep of Reason creates monsters", etching and aquatint by Francisco Goya.
The Woman of Babylon Albrecht Dürer.
The Woman of Babylon Albrecht Dürer.

A third and perhaps more plausible theory suggests that although Lucifer is inarguably a central character in The Ninth Gate, he does not physically appear in the film, and is in fact neither Corso nor The Girl.

This theory stems from Balkan and other characters' description of the purpose of the book The Nine Gates of the Kingdom of Shadows. At the outset of Corso's journey, Balkan says that the book contains ancient and arcane information that, when interpreted correctly, allows one to conjure Lucifer. As the plot of the film unfolds, it is revealed that the text of the book itself seems irrelevant to this purpose, and that the key to successfully getting the Devil to appears lies in the nine engravings in the book, which outline a sort of spiritual journey or quest. Ultimately, Corso alone fulfills this quest, so one would assume that if Balkan were accurate in his beliefs as to the purpose of the book, Corso is walking towards the final gate at the end of the film in order to meet Lucifer.

If this is the case, it is interesting to note why Corso (rather than the other human characters) is granted the opportunity to meet Lucifer. While the other primary characters are indeed corrupt, none of them seem able or willing to take the same journey that Corso inevitably completes. Because they each worship the Devil but are unable to completely commit themselves, they each are defeated and meet their untimely ends. Corso, by remaining on the correct path, skirts destruction and ruin and is ultimately successful. The Ceniza Brothers reinforce this idea when they tell Corso to remain on track or face the consequences.

This theory is coherent with both the text and symbolism of the film. While there are other characters who seem in some sense supernatural (The Girl and possibly the Ceniza Brothers), this points back to the opening of the film when Balkan discusses witches and familiars. One would expect other supernatural creatures to appear in this narrative's universe.

There is little in the dialogue of the film to suggest that either Corso or the Girl are the devil themselves. In Corso's case, it makes little sense as to why the devil would need to complete a spiritual journey to meet himself, and there is a clear degradation of morality in this character that takes him from mildly unethical to completely corrupt throughout the course of the film. One would expect Lucifer, at least as described in this movie, to already be completely immoral, whereas Corso needs to undertake this unrighteous quest in order to be evil enough to meet Satan.

It is also unlikely that the film director intended for the Girl to be Satan. Of note, the movie draws heavily from Christian myth, and Lucifer is never represented as a female character in conventional Judeo-Christian mythology. The Girl also appears on the ninth engraving in the book, which would seem to suggest that she is part of the final leg of the journey, rather than Satan himself. In this engraving, she is seen sitting atop a seven headed beast. This is typical of Christian imagery of the Whore of Babylon and is taken from the book of Revelation. In that story, the Whore is a servant of Satan who plays an important role in the end of the world. There are several beasts in Revelation, one of which is a seven headed dragon with ten horns that symbolizes Satan. There are many historical artistic renderings that depict the Whore of Babylon sitting on top of a beast, and which specific beast is portrayed varies. In the context of The Ninth Gate, it would seem likely that the engraving is meant to represent the Whore of Babylon and Lucifer (as the dragon). In the bible, the Whore of Babylon is a servant of Satan who represents the corruption of the Roman Empire, and as depicted in the film, the Girl could be construed to be a servant of Satan who facilitates the corruption of Corso. Regardless her role in the movie, because she is clearly pictured with a symbol of Satan and not as Satan, we must assume she is a separate entity entirely.

[edit] "The Girl" as a fallen angel

A Fallen Angel Gustave Doré.
A Fallen Angel Gustave Doré.

One can also form a hypothesis, or theory that The Girl is a Fallen angel cast out of heaven and is on earth for Lucifer, acting as a guardian angel for Corso, leading him to his desired destination. She does the utmost to see Corso along his way, even informing him where the final engraving is located.

[edit] The Girl has supernatural powers

  • The Girl changes form while making love to Corso, notably her face takes the form of another woman during the climax of the scene.
  • In the hotel room her eyes change color several times while looking at Corso, notably the iris of the eyes, during eye contact, after he gives her an ice bag to slow her nose bleed.
  • The Girl can levitate with movement, as seen twice in the film.

[edit] Why don't people research the details of the movie more?

I don't understand at all about all this speculation about who Corso and the girl were supposed to symbolize, etc., etc. Do you really think Roman Polanski or the author of the book intended all of those hidden meanings? If so, why don't you ask Roman Polanski and then you can stop speculating once and for all. Instead of speculating, why don't you just do research on some of the easy to grasp details of the movie, starting at places like this:

1. Read the novel 2. Read the original script for the movie - it doesn't match the final movie (more clues!) 3. Listen to the director's commentary on the DVD 4. Get the sound track 5. Polanski said in the commentary that the castle in the movie was an old French Cathar castle. Who are the Cathars? Why does the movie end with Corso walking into their castle?

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