Talk:The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

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Done, it's feeble, but Oh, well I'm not a scientist. (Unsigned post)

Thanks for the start. Do you like the new version? By the way, why don't you register and so we will be able to discuss things easier? Pfortuny 10:24, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yah, it's a lot better now, and it's better redirected too XD, I already registered XD...I dunno a lot about Poems and I didn't know if i could post it..

If you could sign your posts... (just add four "tildes" ~~~~) at the end. Then your name and date will appear. Thx. Pfortuny 12:54, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I know, somebody told me XD Oca 13:05, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Is the Allman Brothers reference REALLY necessary? C'mon, the band completely deny it, and there's documentation (an interview) of Duane saying "every time I'm in Georgia, I eat a peach for peace." It's a lovely coincidence, but a coincidence nonetheless. Duane was a hell of a guitarist but I highly doubt he even knew who T.S. Elliot was. Fishanthrope 16:47, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed this, as it does seem apocryphal. Telemachus

A number of the pop culture refs seem to be stretching a bit, and VERY few of them are sourced. The Allman ref seems to have returned (I assume the one there now is the one y'all were talking about), and I'm skeptical of the ref to the Rush song... I mean, "That's not what I meant at all" is a pretty common English phrase, so unless there's a real reason to see it as a reference to the poem, I'd say that one should be removed. Unfortunately I'm just not knowledgeable enough to revamp that section, but I'd suggest that it needs revamping. Hierophany 11:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 British or American spelling? 2 Original research? 3 Interpretation 4 Addition coming 5 The New Version 6 Middle-aged ?? 7 Who called the poem "absolutely insane"? 8 RV POV 9 wikisource 10 Cultural references 11 Unsourced Material

[edit] British or American spelling?

This article has "etherized" in the famous opening lines of Prufrock. The main T S Eliot article has "etherised". Which did Eliot actually write? MCB 00:43, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

My copy of the poem, from T. S. Eliot: Selected Poems, says 'etherised', so I'll change this article to reflect that. splintax ^(talk) 13:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Interesting aside on this. My Copy ('T. S. Eliot: Collected Poems' in Folio) uses 'etherised', but in 'Conversation Galante' 'humour' is spelt in the American fashion ("You, madam, are the eternal humorist..."). MJSchofield 17:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

He's an American though...Cameron Nedland 00:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

Much of this seems original research, like a critical survey, no? Mandel 02:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• This looks like original research, and it shows only one interpretation of a poem that scholars debate the meaning of. I'll try to find time to overhaul it. --Samael775 02:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it needs an overhaul. I'd be happy to see interpretations included so long as they are properly footnoted. — Stumps 06:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretation

This article's interpretation of the poem is not the only one, and it should be expanded to include other analyses.

I'm wondering if anyone has found any information relating this poem to Alice Through the Looking Glass. In the first stanza (after the quotation from Dante) "And sawdust restaurants with oyster shells:" after reading that line the first thing that came into mind was the Walrus and the Carpenter that Alice hears about from Tweedledee and Tweedledum. I'm wondering if anyone has heard of this allusion? I haven't found any speculation on the matter. Though it is plausible because Alice Through the Looking Glass was published 1871 and Eliot wrote the poem in 1910-1911.

[edit] Addition coming

I am currently working on a research paper on T.S. Eliot, focusing on "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" i will add my interpretation of the poem to the article when it is completed. Please let me know of any errors in my post, as i am new at this.

• I'm afraid you can't post your personal interpretation of the poem, as that is original research unless you can support it with reliable sources or your paper has been published by one. --Samael775 00:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• your opinion has to be published in order to be valid? that's ridiculous... no wonder there's only one interpretation; nobody's going to dedicate however many years of his/her life going through the administrative processes of getting published for a wikipedia article. I say if you have a different way of interpreting the poem, post it.

• Material must be verifiable and sources should be cited; if you're interpretation is new and interesting you should have no problem getting it published elsewhere; if it is not genuinely new, then we should cite the original source of the interpretation. Stumps 09:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The New Version

I have rewritten the article's section of interpretation of the poem from a more NPOV, with numreous citations. I have also added a section on the poem's use of literary allusion. It could still use some work, but I think it is definately an improvment. --Samael775 02:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Good job. Well done! Stumps 08:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle-aged ??

Do virtually all commentators agree that the character is middle-aged?? I dimly recall reading a good case for the voice being that of a young man as Eliot was, frustrated amidst the stifling conventions of the society of his time. Dylan Thomas says something in one of his letters about feeling old as only the young can. We at least need some citations to back up a statement like "Virtually all critics agree". Stumps 08:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I seemed to think that that was a given, and I didn't read anything contesting it, but I guess there is really nothing about the poem that is not debated. I will try find sources for different arguments about this when I get back from Minnesota next week. --Samael775 17:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that the consensus is wide enough to make a statement like "virtually all critics agree". I'd also be curious to know whether Eliot ever addressed this question, or whether this view is built up solely out of internal evidence from the poem -- the bald spot, "I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker", "I grow old" etc. --Rrburke 17:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find any sources which refute that he is middle aged, but I have toned down the language a bit. --Samael775 03:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who called the poem "absolutely insane"?

A magazine editor Pound showed Prufrock to when he was shopping it around for publication pronounced the poem "absolutely insane". Does anyone recall who the editor was? --Rrburke 17:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RV POV

I have removed the following text from the page, as I felt that it was POV. "There is irony in the name "J. Alfred Prufrock" as it starts out somewhat pompous but "Prufrock" lends a comedic element to the name rather than one of dignity.

The is further irony in the "Love Song" portion of the title as Prufrock never states a love nor does he imagine the mermaids at the end of the poem singing to him." --Samael775 18:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wikisource

im sorry, this is probably a stupid question which has already come up, but, is it possible for us to post the entire poem on wikisource? i imagine any copyright on it would be expired, and obviously a link to the entire text would be very relevant to the article. Benji64 01:36, 21September 2006 (UTC)

The copyright has expired in the U.S. at least. Also, for confirmation, Project Gutenberg has published the poem and they are very careful about copyright infringement. WikiParker 10:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

gahh im sorry, i was the one who made the ill-fated attempt to link the article in wikisource...i just couldnt get the damn thing to work right, and i dont know why. perhaps someone more knowledgeable in these matters could set the link up, because the text is definitely available in wikisource. Benji64 01:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural references

How about moving the popular culture references to a new page Cultural references to The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock ... along the lines of the emerging standard in pages such as Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great, Cultural depictions of Vincent van Gogh, and Cultural depictions of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. It has the advantage of allowing more space for a fuller treatment of references in popular culture and also 'de-clutters' the main article so it can focus on the actual poem, the circumstances of its writing, critical responses to it, and the history of its publication. Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc became a featured list. See the category Cat:In popular culture for a complete list of similar articles. I'm happy to do the work of moving things across if others agree that this might be a productive way forward. Stumps 12:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking that having just one for Eliot would be enough with sections for the topics that tend to gather these items (e.g., LSJAP, TWL). WikiParker 15:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced Material

As this text is completely unsourced, as well as reading like an essay, I am removing until it can be cleaned up and sources provided:

Eliot managed to place so many literary and philosophical allusions to his poem that it is impossible to even count them, let alone to take down on such a small space. The poem is in the form of a dramatic monologue, which might be the first allusion, while the master of this style was Robert Browning, whose most famous work is “My Last Duchess ”. The original title of Browning's poem was “Italy”, which is one of the first references to this country and its art indicated in Eliot's poem. Next important thing is that the speaker of the monologue is very probably Alfonso II., the 16th century duke of Ferrara . The name Alfonso cannot but remind us of the name Alfred, who speaks in The Love Song.

Alfonso talks to a messenger of a Count, whose daughter he intends to marry, about a picture of his former wife. During the whole poem, nevertheless, the reader has the idea that the duke speaks to him and only near the very end he realizes that it is the messenger whom Alfonso speaks to. On the other hand, Alfred also speaks to someone, as in the very first line of the poem he says “Let us go then, you and I”, but we do not find explicitly said who it is.

This question brings us to the epigraph of the poem, a passage from Dante's Divine Comedy, left in in Italian. Guido da Montefeltro says in this passage that if he thought Dante was able to return from the hell to the earth, he would never say a single word to him. Guido, however, supposes that it is impossible to go back, so he will answer his questions without fear of disgrace.

We can take this allusion as a metaphor and the answer to our question. Prufrock might state by using this quotation the definition of his ideal reader or companion, who can listen to his 'love song' and not tell anyone what he heard. It also suggests that what we are going to hear is something very personal and that Alfred would be embarrassed if it was heard by foreign people.

In The Divine Comedy it is clearly Vergil who tells Dante to follow him to the hell, nonetheless the situation is complicated by Eliot. It might be a friend of his who Prufrock wants to share his desperate feelings with, it can be the lady whom he would like to express his devotion to, his schizophrenic ego , which would correspond to the definition of the ideal listener or a combination of these. Each would make sense, but a clear proof of one possibility can be found with difficulty. The scheme of The Divine Comedy can be seen even in the vertical direction of Prufrock. We start “...When the evening is spread out against the sky...” and finish on the bottom of the sea when “...we drown.” Although Dante also finishes on the bottom (though of the hell), he then climbs up to the purgatory and finally reaches the paradise, which is a diametrically different ending providing his protagonist with endless hope. There is nothing like this waiting for Prufrock in the end. The second biggest group of allusions are those deriving inspiration from Shakespeare. When Eliot says “..No! I am not prince Hamlet...” in the second half of the poem, it is one of the rare allusions expressed very explicitly and the similarity of hesitation and indecision is unexceptionable. Nonetheless, Hamlet was at the end forced to decide and to act, even though improvising, while it is still something Prufrock was unable to do and that is may be, why he likens himself rather to Polonius. He names all his characteristics, which truly correspond to Alfred too. The difference is that Polonius would never honestly characterize himself so accurately, whilst Prufrock, on the other hand, might see himself in a too bad light. Hamlet's greatest question is reminded to us twice by an unobtrusive echo of his famous statement: “To be or not to be... ” , when Prufrock says close to his explicite reference “...nor was meant to be..” and “..glad to be of use...” as well as when he mentions his “overwhelming question” several times throughout the poem.

When we then look at lines 52-53, we find a beautiful allusion to another Shakespeare's play – Twelfth Night or, What You Will . It is right in the opening scene when Orsino, the Duke of Illyria says: If music be the food of love, play on, Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting, the appetite may sicken, and so die. That strain again!It had a dying fall; (...) O spirit of love, how quick and fresh art thou, That, notwithstanding thy capacity, receiveth as the sea .

Eliot made of it: “I know the voices dying with a dying fall/ Beneath the music from a farther room.” The similarity is almost surprising – the themes of music and the “dying fall” repeated in such a close distance. In Shakespeare's play love lives from illusions for such a long time that in the end, it becomes an illusion itself . We can assume that Prufrock also believed for a very long time that he was in love with someone, but once he was not able to tell her (if he really loved her, which is a different question), his love has actually become just an illusion as such. As for the image of the sea in Orsino's speech and in the whole play in general, it is again very akin to Eliot's poem. The sea represents a greedy creature which gluttonies everything and leaves nothing behind , which is exactly where Eliot's poem heads – to the bottom of the ocean. Other reference to Shakespeare can be found near the end of the poem when Prufrock says:

I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think that they will sing to me.

I have seen them riding seaward on the waves Combing the white hair of the waves blown back.

While in the Midsummer night's dream Oberon says to Puck: ...Since once I set upon a promontory and heard a mermaid on a dolphin's back uttering such a dulcet and harmonious breath that the rude sea grew civil at her song and certain stars shot madly from their spheres to hear the sea-maid's music.

In Elizabethan England, mermaids were generely connected to prostitutes so what Eliot might be hinting at are the female attributes, which are linked to a mermaid. She used to be a goddess of fertility and was later united with the goddess of love, Aphrodite, born from the wave foam. Her attributes were mirror, the symbol of vanity, long hair as an abundant love potential and a comb, which carried sexual connotations for the Greeks, as their words for comb, kteis and pecten, also signified the female vulva . While Shakespeare did not use the image of the comb in his text, Eliot did so, and thus the mermaid can be seen as a link between passion and destruction and it, therefore, fits perfectly at the end of the poem. Prufrock finally realized that he would simply never belong to the women's world, that he will be never able to express his feelings and somehow drowns in the sea. This is actually again an allusion to Shakespeare, since also Ophelia dies by drowning partly due to her unrequited love to Hamlet.

Quite interesting is also the change of a dolphin in Shakespeare to a wave in Eliot. In mythology, the dolphin was a symbol of fair sailing and a sacred companion of goddess Aphrodite . Waves, on the other hand do not have any sacred meaning, so the possible hope for Prufrock is not left there and so even this circumstance says he is doomed to fail.

Another work of art which Eliot used as his inspiration is Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress . Marvell is trying to persuade his lady to make love to him because their time on the earth is limited and they should, therefore, make the best of it. Marvell's speaker says: “Had we but World enough, and Time” which Eliot echoes in his various statements about time. Prufrock is convinced that he will have enough time to express his feelings, and postpones the moment when he should act, which is a great ironical echo.

Another proof that Eliot was influenced by To His Coy Mistress can be seen when Alfred says: “Would it have been worth while, (...)/ To have squeezed the universe into a ball/ to roll it toward some overwhelming question”, while in Marvell we read: “Let us roll all our Strength, and all /our sweetness, up into one Ball;” Marvell's speaker is very confident that rolling everything he has, thereby his very own universe, into a ball will help his mistress to decide and act. Prufrock, however, again hesitates, asks for justification and once more finishes with his overwhelming question without any resolution. Then, there is a beautiful allusion to Jules Laforgues's poem Sunday . The images of water, loneliness, indifference, dullness and a suicide by drowning of an anonymous ward are undoubtedly very similar and beautifully echoed in Eliot. Laforgue managed to state the great seclusion on a minimal space, also starting in the sky and finishing in the river.

The difference between them, among other things, lies in the point of view of the narrator: Laforgue describes the girl's action quite indifferently through his eyes, while Eliot uses the ich form to narrate. Then there is the question, which of them evokes more sympathy in the reader? In my opinion, the rigorous poem by Laforgue succeeded in this more then Eliot's speaker. Firstly, we do not know why the ward was so desperate, but her reasons would obviously be quite understandable. On the other hand, we are familiar with Prufrock's situation but he is not described as a very attractive protagonist. His passivity in fact creates quite negative reactions in the reader, which was very probably Eliot's aim but also something Laforgue did not want to achieve.

In another Laforgue's poem, Derniers Vers IX , the aspect of fictitious imagination corresponds to that by Eliot. The lyrical subject imagines that an attractive girl comes to his apartment to express her hidden feelings for him and is terrified by the possibility of his rejection, which is the exact opposite of Prufrock, where he imagines himself expressing his feelings. Laforgue stresses here the image of eyes, as the girl watches the speaker all the time almost in a mad way. Eliot does actually the same to Prufrock, but the eyes that watch him are even more aggressive, as they are able to “fix you in a formulated phrase...”

We could go on, naming and interpreting all the other allusions hidden in Prufrock, but I will stop here and due to the limited space will leave the rest out. When one reads the poem for the first time, he very probably misses the great majority of them. The only references stated really explicitly are those to Michelangelo and Hamlet. The Renaissance genius and author of the David is such a great opposite to imperfect Prufrock. With these you dispense with various meta texts, but otherwise, you do need them.

The poem is understandable if you are not familiar with Dante, John Donne or the Bible. You comprehend the narrative plane of the poem without understanding the majority of the allusions. However, what you do not get is the uncountable number of hints and hidden senses. These are what makes the poem so wonderful and what invites you to read it again and again. You simply never know, which allusion you will discover and which will put The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock into a different light for you.

--Samael775 03:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)