Talk:The Lord of the Rings film trilogy

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Image:Lord of the rings the fellowship of the ring ver2.jpg is available if you want to use it :) - cohesion★talk 08:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Error of fact?

This page boldly proclaims that no props were "not made from scratch". I seriously doubt this. Richard Taylor says during the Production commentary of the Two Towers that some of the orc/Uruk eye lens (the red ones) were bought of the shelf. This was for the scene were they discuss eating Merry and Pippin. Taylor deeply lamented having to buy them; he thinks they look very fake and that they are basically the weakest part of the Trilogy from a make-up perspective. But the fact remains that the eye covers were bought off the shelf and NOT made from scratch, so this article is definitely wrong. I have no idea what the correct number is, though. --DreamsReign 00:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

48,000 refers to Weta forging the pieces of armour, as quoted in Sibley's book. Props from scratch refers to, well, the Art Department, not Weta. Wiki-newbie 11:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My two cents

I've read the "all props made from scratch" thing in many magazines, but it's possible it's just a publicity thing and not truly accurate. The contact lenses were certainly imported (though some were then painted by people working on the films.) Are contact lenses props? I imagine some of the food, such as apples, were not specifically grown for the films. Are these props? I'd say so. I wouldn't be against changing the "zero props not made from scratch" thing... although it's possible we're over analyzing things.

I'd have to agree, simply because it's nearly impossible to make "everything" from scratch. However, if it's not entirely factual, it's in essence true. It should be phrased to express the fact that virtually every prop was created for this version of Middle-Earth, and not, say, borrowed from a medieval setting, etc. I'm not sure how it's generally done in films.MRig 02:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

For a moment I thought Bormir (the human who dies at the end of the first film) touched the ring, but I guess technically he only touched the necklace holding it. But wasn't it true that one of the hobbits seriously injured their foot during filming? I thought Sam or Frodo stepped on a nail or a wooden spike or something.

There are two instances where this happened. One was in the scene where Frodo is running from the Ringwraiths and jumps onto the ferry. I don't remember which Hobbit hurt his foot, but it turned out to be smaller than they thought. The other was when Sam runs after Frodo at Amon Hen in the end of Fellowship and tries to swim after him. In this case, Sean Astin's foot was virtually impaled by some sort of debris. Of the two, the latter is more noteworthy, but they're easily confused.MRig 02:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Didn't Gandalf also touch the One Ring briefly before Frodo picked it up? It happens in FotR in the scene where Bilbo departs the Shire and the ring gives Gandalf a vision of the Eye of Sauron.
No, Gandalf reaches to pick it up but then that eye thing happen and he refused to touch it (btw, I don't think he actually saw the eye, he just felt its presence which visually was represented by the eye). --Ted87 20:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


-- Also how does one break 'several' toes on a single foot? Is Viggo a freak of nature? Sincerely, Koncorde.

"Several" just means more then 2 or 3 (although I doubt he'd brake more then 3). Ted87 01:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
exactly, so perhaps it should be "broke a couple of toes". I mean he either broke "4", or "all" his toes on one foot. If he'd broken 2 or 3, it should be 'Couple', if he broke all 5 then it's "All" and if he broke 4...well then just say he broke a "few"! Just find it amusing to see 'several' used when referring to toesies. Made me laugh quite loudly at 4 in the morning. Sincerely, Koncorde
I was the one who changed "some" to "several." It's just as vague, but sounds less so. "A couple" fairly certainly means two. Does it specify how many were broken on the DVD? I don't remember, I should check. Also, I made it specific to the Two Towers. However, if that's the case, should it be moved to the specific Two Towers movie page? Just some things that occured to me, please forgive any newbie mistakes. MRig 02:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

-- Just curious, does anyone know (or can anyone find out) how many One Ring props had to be made? I know of at least three different sizes that were made (Hobbit-sized, man-sized, and a giant one for the scene where it is lifted out of camera in the mountans....-sized) but I think it'd be funny to add that to the facts and figures section: Number of One Rings made: 7. -Houdin654jeff 01:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

" * After the scene where Samwise kisses Rosie, Viggo Mortensen made out with Billy

Boyd just behind the cameras." I deleted that part. I hope that's ok. --Iloveorangejuice 01:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

-- Someone neglected to note that Gandalf also touched the Ring, after pulling it from the fireplace at Bag End right at the start of the story.

No he didn't. He used fire tongs to take it from the fire and dropped it in Frodo's hand. Frodo grabbed it when they heard Sam outside the window. Ted87 04:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes he did. But not as mentioned above. Gandalf touched the ring after Bilbo had dropped it. That's when he had a vision of the Eye. It gave me a great scare. After that he got Frodo to put the Ring in an envelop. As Gandalf is the one handling the envelop here he should be mentioned. Mausy5043 17:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Why was the trivia part removed by Wikinewbie? I thought it was rather an interesting piece. Mausy5043

Wiki-newbie's earlier removal of trivia had edit summary "I do feel for an article like this, I cannot have trivia" [1]. I reverted with summary "Trivia section reinserted. Such sections are common and probably amuse many. Discuss on talk before removing" [2]. Wiki-newbie's next removal said "Trivia - Purged" [3], with no mention on talk. I liked the trivia but the article is long and I don't feel enough for it to go into a revert war. PrimeHunter 00:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Thematically Necessary"?

The article suggests that the deletion of "Scourging of the Shire" from the movies was a bad idea, since the episode is "thematically necessary". Is it? Sure, the vision of the Shire in flames via Galadriel's water trick is not exactly what the books suggest, but it's a good replacement. Besides, it's more satisfying that Sauron and his forces are destroyed when the Ring is destroyed, and that there is nothing to worry about after the Hobbits return to the Shire. But I digress. The point is that there is commentary imbedded in this phrase and that it probably has no place in a WP article.Azlib77 10:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It is thematically necessary, since Tolkien, unlike Jackson, wrote the story with an ultimately hobbit-centric POV. Also, the hobbits face Saruman's ruffians (he wasn't killed at Orthanc), not Sauron's forces, and saying that "it's more satisfying" the way Jackson did it is obviously (your) POV. Look at this link: [4] Uthanc 00:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Both are POV. It is very subjuctive to say "The Scourging of the Shire was/wasn't neccessary". As long as both views are presented, there shouldn't be any problems. --Ted87 08:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I am going to rewrite to say Tolkien thought it was necessary. The very fact Jackson omitted it, and that some people did not like the omission, communicates their POV on this. Baccyak4H 18:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
In the commentary on the third DVD, Jackson says he originally intended to include 'Scouring of the Shire', and even started work on the props (a two-metre model of the ruined watermill is part of the official exhibition of Lord of the Rings memorabilia). However, it was dropped because the movie was getting over-long, and a new 'plot twist' after the main story had ended would disturb the flow of the film. Jeendan 22:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I recall an interview that said it was never in any script draft. But leave it. Wiki-newbie 22:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Mm, I've seen the props at the exhibition, and Jackson talks about it on the DVD track. I don't know if a script was drafted but you' think so if they went to the trouble of building props. It's not a big deal either way - I wish they had included it but I can see why they didn't. Jeendan 01:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, all the stuff for Scouring was done specifically for Galadriel's mirror, featuring the mill miniature. Now let's not get too forum-esque. Wiki-newbie 09:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not bad at all

The article is optimal in its information, instead of just adding loads of info that in the end is really nothing but trivia or personal research. Is not big in fandom either, unlike articles from Star Wars or Warcraft or Matrix. Congratulations on this.

Thanks, I've worked hard on this article, though I feel it is difficult to get references as most of my information comes from the DVD. Wiki-newbie 11:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you on about? The Star Wars Trilogy and The Matrix Trilogy were merely used to disambiguation their respective articles. The article also suffers from POV, lack any negatives or criticism.

[edit] In defense of readers who don't like the films

I restored Wayne Hammond's negative remarks. While others obviously don't agree with him, I think it's important to note negative reactions coming from non-film fans who've also read the book. He's also a big-name fan, having published a number of publications, some co-published with his wife, also a fan. http://bcn.net/~whammond/biblios.html

In response to User:DerekDD, who removed the quote, saying that it wasn't consistent with a 95% positive Rotten Tomatoes rating - well, Hammond and others like him are different and probably should be considered separately from many of those critics, since they've read the book! Which in fact the article does. It clearly differentiates two types of "judges": those who've read the book, and those who haven't (in other words, general audiences). Obviously, the latter far outweigh the former, and these viewers are more predisposed to like the films, since:

  • they have no preconceived notions about how they imagined it to be, and, more importantly,
  • they don't know what has been changed. Would a non-reader care (at least as much as a reader) about the changes made to Arwen, Faramir and Denethor, for example? They wouldn't be able to say, "They got it just right!" or "That's so wrong!" — only "Cool!" and "Wow"!, etc.

A 95% positive rating on Rotten Tomatoes and a high rating on imdb are both, as I suspect, largely based on non-reader opinion. imdb's online voting can't be used to show that people who don't like the films are wrong. Similarly, box office results are only signs of the films' popularity and money-earning strength, not reader and critic approval. Attack of the Clones did very well at the box office, but were its dramatic elements (as opposed to special effects) generally liked by general audiences and critics? No...

Adding negative reactions from readers only serves to add balance. Of course, not all readers disliked the films (all in all I prefer the book, though the films do have their moments), so adding positive reviews from readers also would help. Uthanc 02:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think in all fairness we got a sense of a 60/40 sense of approval from readers. Often negatives tend to be a loud minority. However, I will maybe start putting down quotes from Chris Lee and other film approving fans. Wiki-newbie 15:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"60/40"? What does that mean, 60% positive and 40% negative (good, but flawed in spots)? "Often negatives tend to be a loud minority" - yes, the readers who don't like the films (as opposed to just preferring the book) do tend to get angry (can't blame them; they feel that strongly about it). So what should we say, "It was generally liked by readers and non-readers alike, but some of the former have decried various changes", blah blah? Uthanc 04:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Eh? Well, anyway, we've got the WP fundamental of neutrality down. Wiki-newbie 18:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Three movies about walking (Clerks 2)

In the movie [Clerks 2], Randal equates the Lord of The Rings movies as being 3 movies about walking. The first movie is demonstrated by Randal taking an exagerated step while blank-faced. The second by tripping and looking back and down mid-walk. The third consisting of the same walk culminating in a gesture to remove the ring from the finger and toss it downward. I found this analogy to be quite apt , witty, reflective of my attitudes on Lord of The Rings (or at least the movie). I leave this here for others to decide on it's merit for inclusion in this article (mainly as I am unsure where in the article this would best be placed). Trivia or Criticism? AnarchyElmo 18:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

How about popular culture: satire and parody section? Wiki-newbie 18:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I put it, slightly rewritten, in the movies section. Uthanc 20:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Though I loved the Clerks films, (both of them), I feel that line was intended only as a baseless joke, in context with Randal's character. And indeed, it is a joke. The line was intentionally ridiculous from the point of view of a fictional character, and it's amazing that anyone could take humorous and clearly satirical dialog to heart. - Anon

[edit] Boromir

Is this necessary?

Sean Bean (Rhian Sanville's lover) as Boromir, an extremely good looking Gondorian warrior with a sheffield accent, son of its steward, who accompanies the Fellowship but is also tempted by the Ring. He sees no need for the return of the King though he comes to respect Aragorn. He dies at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring, yet returns in flashbacks.

...someone has a crush, apparently. His description is twice as long as most of the other characters listed and he died in the first movie. I edited it to remove most of the random stuff (Rhian Sanville's lover ... what does that have to do with anything?) but it's been a while since I saw the movie so I wasn't sure if all the information in the above paragraph was accurate. So for now it's just a condensed version of above until someonewho knows what they're talking about comes along. Skin Crawl 06:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeesh. Thanks for reverting it: I myself put quite a bit of detail into Boromir myself considering he is a highly complex figure. Wiki-newbie 10:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Evenstar jewel

This could use a bit of expanding, including an image: Evenstar (jewel) (Made Evenstar, previously a redirect to Arwen, a disambig page) Uthanc 20:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Passing

While this article is not without it's flaws, it's easy to read, NPOV and very well referenced (70!). If in the future you consider doing an FAC, make sure that you get it peer reviewed first because for an article such as this people may have a differnt opion from me, but it passes as I said above.

†he Bread 09:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Details not specified in the films

We should only limit ourselves to what the films say, and omit details appearing only in the book. For example:

  • Orlando Bloom as Legolas, an Elven prince who accompanies the Fellowship. He is an accomplished fighter and archer.

Is Legolas identified as a prince in the films? If not, we should only use archer and fighter. It should be rephrased as:

  • Orlando Bloom as Legolas, an Elven archer who accompanies the Fellowship. He is an accomplished fighter.

Similarly, with

  • Ian Holm as Bilbo Baggins, Frodo's (much older) cousin.

If Bilbo was only called Frodo's uncle, we should use uncle.

Is the term "Rangers of Ithilien" used in the films? The merchandise uses "Gondor Rangers" or "Gondorian Rangers". If "... of Ithilien" wasn't used, we should use the merchandising terms.

Sorry, I've never seen the extended versions (unavailable), so if these terms are actually in those versions, I understand. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Uthanc (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ultimate Edition?

Can someone link me to the Ultimate edition mentioned in the article? According to the article it should be out by now. I should very much like to purchase it. -- AS Artimour 16:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Considered to be the biggest movie project ever undertaken"

I own the boxed-set of Extended Editions, so it's not for any lack of love for the films that I point out that this phrase is both unreferenced and demonstrably untrue. Bondarchuk's War and Peace cost more inflation-adjusted, took longer to complete [even without any digital effects to work on], and has more *real* soldiers in it than the Battle of Pelennor Fields has Massive agents. Just sayin'. Zaqwe 01:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The The Lord of the Rings film trilogy"

It might look silly, but there's "The" in the official titles of the trilogy (and the book), isn't it? As I put in my edit summary, we should put "The" before "The Lord of the Rings trilogy" when appropriate; otherwise it would be like saying "George Lucas directed Star Wars trilogy". The title of the article itself has "The"; otherwise it would be titled "Lord of the Rings film trilogy". But I got my changes removed. I know the "The" is routinely dropped in casual conversation, but this isn't casual conversation. Uthanc 10:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

As written on many other articles, it's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Wiki-newbie 11:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

That's what I said, the "The" is part of the title. Uthanc 00:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted "the the" based on these Google hits: 24100 on "The Lord of the Rings film trilogy" -wikipedia, 54 on "The The Lord of the Rings film trilogy" -wikipedia (none of them starting a sentence), 41200 on "The Lord of the Rings Symphony" -wikipedia, 10 on "The The Lord of the Rings Symphony" -wikipedia. It's clearly rare to use double "the". PrimeHunter 16:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
If you don't use the second "the", then the "The" you use shouldn't be considered part of the title. That is, it should be "The Lord of the Rings trilogy", not "The Lord of the Rings trilogy". - Nunh-huh 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should use the correct version, not the version with most search-engine results. --Galadh 10:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
This might seem overly pedantic (or lame), but "The Lord of the Rings film trilogy" is the correct and official (isn't it?) form; going by that we should observe correct grammar by adding "the" when appropriate. Alternately, we just (and do) skirt the issue by using "New Line Cinema's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy", "Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy", etc. The dropping of the "The" is understandable and widespread, but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, which should be more correct than its readers. Uthanc 12:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
English is not exactly defined and people often disagree about "correct". Common conventions about "the" may not apply to placing it before another "the". Wikipedia content is driven by sources. The official site doesn't say "The The Lord of the Rings" in any context but often without double "the", e.g. "The Lord of the Rings trilogy", "The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy", "The Lord of the Rings film trilogy". There are plenty of reliable sources which don't say "the" before titles starting with "the". Would you only refer to The The as "the The The"? PrimeHunter 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Technical reference

I truely do not see the point why:

M. Aitken, G. Butler, D. Lemmon, E. Saindon, D. Peters, G. Williams, "The Lord of the Rings: the Visual Effects that Brought Middle Earth to the Screen", ACM SIGGRAPH 2004 Course Notes, No. 11 (2004).</ref>.

is considered "not notable". It is one of the most detailed discussion of the digital effects used I have seen. And even more, the person removing this did not even suggest what else to cite. It appears he did not even read it to begin with. -- Ylai 14:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I did, I'm aware of the talk, but I don't think it's notable from any standpoint. Any explanation of the special effects in the films are there as referenced from the DVDs. Wiki-newbie 16:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This is plainly not true, and further gives me the impression you did not read the document. Technical aspects like NURBS vs SubD Gollum are clearly not mentioned on the DVD, just to begin with. -- Ylai 17:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't click the pdf. Even then, I can't access it. I'm unsure however how much technical detail we should go into though: see WP:SS. Wiki-newbie 18:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Well that's the point, isn't it. Encyclopedia is about cross-referencing information. It is neither about placing an artificial limit on the what the reader is not supposed to know, nor does it say films are all entertainment and not science itself. How could e.g. the casting and motion capturing etc. stuff (which is pretty much everyone in the effects field does today) about Gollum supposed to important, but "details" for which 6 people received the Technical Achievement Oscar are suddently unimportant? -- Ylai 22:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No criticism?

The article seems to give the point that the LOTR Trilogy is the greatest and most perfect flims ever, and the only criticism coming from novel to film changes. The article also lacks critical reviews of the films themselves, and too much is focused on the Oscar wins. --PCPP 04:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the article is quite neutral. I just don't know where to begin with filmic critisisms. Wiki-newbie 12:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. The article is teetering on lacking a NPOV. It's not the worst example of fandom running away with an article, but it certainly stretches the meaning of the word neutral. Luis1972 (Talk • My Contribs) 04:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, go on, fix it! Don't just moan. WikiNew 15:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Franchising criticisms

Some fans of the book were critical of the way New Line Cinema has "franchised" the series. In particular, Electronic Arts has produced videogames which stray from Tolkien's storylines in varying degrees.

Needs a source; also it doesn't fit in the "reactions to changes from the book" section since this is about the changes made for games rather than changes for the films themselves. When/if we restore this, can we change the header to "Reader reaction" or something? Uthanc 23:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Grumble. Accidentally removed this section when I added my Recent Edit Wars comment, below. FeralDruid 08:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Edit Wars

There have been a number of changes recently, going back and forth on the wording "unadjusted for inflation" and "A few critics such as Robert Ebert did not receive the trilogy so warmly." I could have sworn there was a Wikipedia policy regarding repetitive edits. Why do these two items keep getting added and removed? FeralDruid 08:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, today, "unadjusted for inflation" and "A few critics" has been added back into the article. Why does these items keep getting added and removed? FeralDruid 06:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, someone seems to have a POV issue. Ebert is a notable critic and needs to stand out. For balance, I added Berardinelli's top 100. WikiNew 11:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The edit war here has got to stop. Please discuss the issues here on the talk page, and look for a compromise version that everyone can live with. I have semi-protected the page for a week; this is more of a warning than prevention of editing, since most of the participants in this have mature accounts. If the edit war continues, then the article will be locked down.-gadfium 08:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The user User:DerekDD Contributions have added large amounts of questionable statements into the article, including the addition of a LotR fansite amongst the critical reviews section [5][6][7], and the attempted removal of negative opinions [8], the the attempt to downplay such criticisms [9] His contributions on LOTR consists of nothing besides adding POV words into articles on Peter Jackson [10], Return of the King and LOTR film trilogy. I have attempted to modify some of his weasel words, such as "verified to be the most popular", "A vast majority of critics have also highly praised the trilogy" and restored his removal of the inflation note.

User:Granwishes88 Contributions is possibly his alt, as they share similar editing patterns.--PCPP 06:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

PCPP, I see you have twice reverted the article since I asked for the edit war to stop. Your reverts have removed the sprotect notice, and reintroduced old errors such as the grammatical error "an video". By all means edit the article, but don't just wipe out the improvements of others. I suggest you try making a small change, and wait for a response.-gadfium 06:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
DerekDD, please don't revert edits without discussing them on the talk page, and looking for compromises. Edit summaries are not sufficient to discuss this matter, and try to find a version that's acceptable to everyone.-gadfium 08:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cast list

Seems to me that the cast list could be cut down some. I think there are at least a handful of characters/actors that can be taken off, as they had no major role in the films. Splamo 18:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

List of The Lord of the Rings film series cast members is very much like a category at the moment. I would suggest rather than trimming either list - leave a summary here of the key roles (the fellowship and a couple of others) and move the rest to the list of page. Everyone mentioned at the List of page has a link.Garrie 23:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

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