Talk:The Last Samurai

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Films, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to films and film characters on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start
This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Unknown
This article has not been rated on the importance assessment scale.
The Last Samurai is part of WikiProject Japan, a project to improve all Japan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Japan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Japan To-do:

"The Last Samurai" is also an unrelated book by Helen DeWitt published in 2000.

There's an article about the above now. Point of interest: The movie's name was apparently translated into Finnish under the assumption that the word "Samurai" is in the singular. --Kizor 20:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I added in a setting section.--KevinKao 07:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I fixed up the main article and chucked the last bit about being filmed in NZ into a trivia section. --Woogums 13:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the link of the critique. The one supplied lead to nowhere. -- Mourning Electra 7:57, 22 April 2006

Contents

[edit] Singular or plural

Do we know on what person or group of people that the title is referencing? How do we know that it is plural (as the article suggests), when that all other languages with plural/singular distinction have it in singular? Andelarion 15:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed. Andelarion 17:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree and am putting the sentence in question back into the article. There are many words in the English language that have identical plural and singular forms. A quick Google search gives a mere 950,000 results for "samurais" compared to 47 million for "samurai", a ratio of 2%. This is two few for "Samurais" to be the legitimate or most-common plural form. The plot of the movie also supports the sentence in question -- there are many samurai who together make up the last samurai. ThePedanticPrick 20:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In the interview with Tom Cruise within the "Extras" portion of the DVD, he defines his character, Aldren, as indeed becoming the last remaining Samurai. Now, we can all agree that Tom Cruise is not perfect, however he was required to study the context and significance of this film. Moreover, if that statement is incorrect and therefore misleading, then I'm sure that the producers of this film would have edited such a blatant inaccuracy from the interview. I, too, wanted to believe that "samurai" was plural, but it seems that the U.S. film industry has once again made a very ethnocentric statement. Thus, out of respect for the accuracy of the intentions of the film makers, I will revert back, but briefly explain the issue. --Bakphp 05:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
If "Samurai" does not have a plural form and since the word is clearly a noun in the title, then it can only correlate to one (singular) person (noun). The "Samurai Class" which you edited into the article uses "samurai" as an adjective. "Samurai" refers to an individual when used as a noun, and can describe the class when used as an adjective. Beyond this unnecessary grammar analysis, the above explanation of what the official DVD of "The Last Samurai" advocate must be respected as the executive producer's original intention of the film. Please do not re-edit until further discussion on this page.--Bakphp 19:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Your grammar analysis is grossly incorrect, Bakphp, and it is not true that "samurai" has no plural form. The plural form is simply identical to the singular form, so it is valid to read the title of the movie as referring to either many last samurai or one last samurai. Just like you can eat a bunch of fish, see 7 deer, you can wipe out the last 200 samurai. Is that clear yet? ThePedanticPrick 19:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
My supposition (note that I did not make a claim by using the word "If") on Samurai not having a plural form was based on the previous article edit explanation (Apparently "Samurai" in Japanese has no plural form). Being that the producers are English speaking, perhaps this supposition is not applicable. In which case we would return to the original explanation which I did include in the article that the argument of plurality does exist, but the official DVD rejects such a claim. --Bakphp 00:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if the tone of my last message was inflammatory; I was actually going to explain in detail the various reasons for which I agree with your conclusion, just not the grammar analysis you use to support it. I must have just quit typing too early (stupid ADD!). First, returning briefly to grammar, I want to reiterate that it is not true that "samurai has no plural form"; the singular and plural forms are the same. Moving on, it is apparent to me that the producers most likely meant for the title to refer to a single person. If they had wanted it to refer to multiple samurai, they would have called it "The Last of the Samurai" or maybe even "The Last Samurais", though the second one is probably ungrammatical, as my google search (see above) suggests. Moreover, since Algren's rejection of his own culture and transformation into (for lack of a better word) a samurai is such a strong theme throughout the movie, and Algren is the main character, it would not make very much sense for the title to refer to the tribal band of rebellious samurai, who are mostly scenery throughout the story before being slaughtered at the end. The "last samurai" might, more likely, be Katsumoto (am I the only one who gets a craving for tonkatsu when I hear that name?), but this interpretation gives the Katsumoto character more relevance than the writers and directors did.
All that being said, I still think this issue is relevant to the article. The character's appropriation of Japanese culture has an interesting parallel with the film's (mis?)appropriation of Japanese culture. In bushido, Algren finds inner peace and redemption, while hollywood finds box-office sales, and according to the wikipedian below, appreciation by the japanese. Definitely an interesting subject for analysis. ThePedanticPrick 20:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
PS With his "Psychologists are bad, don't lie on a couch, jump up and down on it" stance, Tom Cruise has lost all credibility in my opinion. Maybe we can find someone who isn't barking mad to verify once and for all that yes, Algren is the last samurai? ThePedanticPrick 20:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, Samurai as it tends to be used is an expression of an ideaology, not specifically as a plural people. For example, when someone says "They (plural) were Samurai", they're really saying that group was of the Samurai belief system. Similarly, think "They were Christian" or "They were Buddhist". But if someone said THE Last Samurai, it should be clear it's one person. "The Last Christian" is one person. "The Last Jesuit" would be one person. etc. 69.176.41.195 20:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jusitifable Claim?

From the article : Some of the Japanese, Asian American, as well as general viewing audiences were appalled or insulted by the seemingly ethnocentric notion that a Caucasian-American would so quickly be able to adopt an ancient art and ultimately become "The Last Samurai."

What is the jusitification or evidence for this claim? It needs a reference, otherwise its just conjecture. I live in Japan, and I have never met any Japanese person who has done anything other than praise the film. It was extremely popular here, and did good box office. One of my Japanese friends described it as "the first time Hollywood has tried to respect our culture and history". I also never saw any news items in the media claiming dissatisfaction. Saiing 13:43, 7 March 2006 (JST)

I'm not Japanese, but I find the implication that a white guy with bad hair was "the last samurai" a bit silly and annoying, although not so much appalling or insulting. If you like, I could express this opinion somewhere on the Web, and we could link to it to support the claim that "general viewing audiences were appalled or insulted" Since you live in Japan, perhaps you could ask some of the locals how they interpret the title -- multiple last samurai or just one last samurai. Then maybe you could ask them what they think about Tom Cruise claiming that his character is the last samurai. ThePedanticPrick 19:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


If you google "Last Samurai racist" then you'll find plenty of people that viewed the film as ethnocentric and racist. Many people may not agree with these claims but the excerpt in which you are commenting only states that such claims exist. Like Pedantic said, someone can link it to one of the many sites, if desired. --Bakphp 20:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry kids, have to add this in -- Did it ever occur to ANYONE that Katsumoto is the Last Samurai? That people are so quick to cry "racist" in this day and age that of course people will simply ASSUME its Tom Cruise? Cruise's character is obviously no more a Samurai than I am a Ninja. Plus, whatever Cruise said on the DVD commentary is meaningless, as he is clearly a buffoon. Thank you. ~Anonymous.


agreed, tom cruise is a bafoon and katsumoto could be interpreted as the last samurai at first. but given the fact that there was noticeable disagreement with this whole issue as soon as the movie was released, i am certain that the producers would have edited out cruise's blatant statements of being the last samurai if it was incorrect...unless of course, the producers are bafoons themselves. --Bakphp 21:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

If you recall the events surrounding Rising Sun, where a movie that merely had Japanese elements was screamed at for racism and such, largely by overtly PC western hysterics, we easily see that the outrage regarding the idenity of the Last Samurai is indeed the small minded acting rashly and harshly without thinking or even bothering to check the facts. Another example was the supposed racism of Ghettopoly, and upon investigation, as people marched and boycotted, the maker was a minority himself. I have seen far more people turn on the false opinion of this movie and so have added the following to at least let people know why they say it, and what it more likely is. Cruise is an actor, not the writer or the director, and thus his words have no relevance to this matter. One wonders if there would have been quite as much furor if Mr Cruise had stated on "War of the Worlds" that it was his character who was instrumental in figuring out that the aliens were being defeated by bacteria, and was thus responsible for saving the world. Would anyone have believed such a statement and then ranted as heartily as they have against this movie? Or would they have assumed that it was an actor assuming that because they are the headline name, they are also the core of the film and its very basis?

"However, the movie itself does not state that the Captain is "The Last Samurai" rather he is an observer who becomes embroiled in their ways. The fate of Katsumoto is the catalyst to the Emperor’s reversal of stance on closer ties with America, and Algren is just the messenger who delivers the sword that has served Japan for 900 years to reveal what he died for and what he hoped to achieve through this death. It is Katsumoto who is mourned for, even by the very troops responsible for his death, and throughout the film, Algren is usually referred to merely as “The American”. It is Katsumoto who is “The Last Samurai” and it is now widely believed that the outrage that surrounded the movies release was an overreaction, such as that surrounding “Rising Sun” where it was again assumed that a Japanese orientated movie made by western hands and with a strong western lead actor could not possibly portray the culture and people in a flattering light."

--Bruce McLachlan 8:10, 1 June 2006

Your claim is still just an opinion that probably many (which by no means indicates a majority) may have as well. You're going to have to have a good source if you want to make such a blatant statement. I am being generous by not deleting the whole thing as being just an editorial. remember, this is an encyclopedia. as far as my source (the official DVD), you have to remember that the controversies errupted right after the movie came out. thus, the producer clearly had the option of editting out that part of the Cruise's interview. Yes, cruise is not the director or writer, but the director did permit those words to be included in the official DVD. Thus, it is an obvious assumption that the Director advocates such a notion.
You have no grounds to remove parts of a discussion, no matter how much they might conflict with your own opinions on the matter at hand. Hopefully you've since given up that radically ignorant notion of trying to censure others just because they come into conflict with your own ideals. You are also fully unaware of whom has control over what is ultimately included on the supplemental materials on DVD releases.75.2.29.8 16:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • cough* Ummm... perhaps people should stop overthinking. At the end of the film, Algren is a Samurai (yes- he was), and every other Samurai in the world (so far as is known in the movie) is dead. Therefore, Captain Nathan Algren is the Last Samurai. You can try to overcomplicate this as much as you want, but at the base level, the name of the movie was chosen for incredibly obvious reasons. 69.176.41.195 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
To add, Algren also presents Katsumoto's sword to the Emperor, and humbling himself before the Emperor, he commits his life even to death to the service of Japan and specifically (of course) its Emperor. In every imaginable way, this is the very definition of Samurai. If it is clear that Katsumoto is dead, and that Algren is a Samurai, that makes Algren the Last Samurai. 69.176.41.195 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
And also to add, thinking that this element of the movie is racist is blatant disregard for the movie's meaning. In the end, the story is of human sacrifice, and the ability of a person to give of themselves for a greater cause. Algren could have been African, Indian, etc, and the message would have been the same. The fact that he happened to be a Caucasian was merely highlighting a person crossing the widest imaginable gap (a 'white opressor' giving up his ways and truly seeing the world through the eyes of those whom he would have opressed), as can be seen in any number of very uplifting movies dealing with race/ideals. 69.176.41.195 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
(nearly done) The contraversy, then, is about people's 'perception' of the movie, not the movie's actual content. The filmmakers (as can be seen from any 'making of', specifically the ones mentioned) made every effort to hire Japanese historians and culture experts as well as taking every opportunity to honor as much of Japanese culture as could be possible. No one involved in the production had any desire to make any racist statement at all, and I'm sure many of the principal people have issued statements to that effect. The discussion should be about 'perceptions', not about trying to shovel racist or unnecessary remarks at the movie. (as in: If Algren were a Japanese-American yet the story was the exact same, wouldn't people still be angry that a person of American nationality had become a Samurai at all? What if he had been *gasp* a woman!?). The attempt to discredit Algren as the Last Samurai really just seems to be part of the attempt to sneak racism into the movie on the part of viewers. 69.176.41.195 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd echo the statement made by Saiing above. The critical statement in this article's introduction implies a groundless split between origins of positive opinions (held by non-Japanese and Asian-American audiences) and negative opinions (held by Japanese and Asian-American audiences who were often "unimpressed or insulted"). I was living in Kyoto when the film was released - Cruise even hosted a premiere party at Nijo Castle - and I've never seen a film so overwhelmingly adored as this was. As a teacher, I talked to literally hundreds of men and women of every age who loved "Last-o Samurai" with a fervor that stomped all over "Titanic" or "Lord of the Rings" at their respective heights in the US. None of them were professors of Japanese history, of course - it seems to me that the film bothered foreign scholars and enthusiasts of Japanese history much more than it did the Japanese public in general. (Myself included - I found a lot of it questionable, for reasons that puzzled my students whenever I brought them up. There's no way in hell, for example, that Taka and the women of the village would welcome Algren back after the rest of the samurai died on the battlefield.)

Compare this to the reaction to "Memoirs of a Geisha" - a film that received a thoroughly chilly reception in Japan. Gorilla Jones 04:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the reason why there is so much controversy whether or on the movie is racist because of people's opnion on the movie. First off, I think the movie is racist and encourages the stereotypical notion that the white guy can do anything, but better. For me, it is not so much of the title, but the content inside. I mean she woos the wife of a samurai he killed. I don't think he would get away with it that easily if that happens in real life. As the article said, it is a an old way to promote racism and clonialization. If the movie was set in Africa and the asian characters were replace with people from North Africa, you will hear a string of complaints from the AA community.

However, I can see why other people such as the general public in Japan praise the movie. They live in a society where almost everyone is asian and it is common for them to see asian couples on Television. In the U.S. it is different. For those out there, asian americans are different when compared to asians, therefore their opinions on things are going to be different. As I said eariler, people in Japan are used to seeing asians in the media while in the U.S., it is rare, especially asian american males. Furthermore, the Japanese public had a different expectation of the film in thinking that Hollywood doesn't respect Japan in films. However, when they watched the film, they realized how much the american film kept the beliefs, culture, and ideas of the samurai rather than adding modernize elements like the memoirs of a gesha have did. In America, however, asian americans expect the movie to be nothing more than a Hollywood movie that focuses more on Tom Cruise than the asian male characters. Furthermore, America is more aware of racism than Japan, so people are going to see it more clearly than those living in Japan. In other words, I think the way asian characters are treated in the U.S. media in the past is the reason of such negativity towards the movie from Asian Americans. --Doomzaber 21:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Your belief that this film is racist under the lines that a "white man can do anything better than anyone else" is absolutely ridiculous. That's like saying a film about a black man going into a tribe of savage white people can hunt better because he's aware of what he is doing while the savages act on their primitive instincts. The claim of racism has nothing to do with that. The film may be historically and factually inaccurate, I'll concede to that. It may be far fetched to believe that a foreigner would be accepted as a Samurai even if he was never given such a title under such easily questionable circumstances. There are, however, no racist connotations contained throughout the film, unless you want to personally accept the fact that a country's own people were turning against themselves (liken it to members of the Jewish community dividing and calling each other "kikes" - while technically racist in what outsiders would perceive, it is essentially members of the same race undergoing infighting). The levels of ignorance that have seeped so predominantly into the art of critique are almost astounding. The way many people have simply jumped onto the bandwagon of those calling this film "racist" makes me sick to my stomach. 75.2.29.8 16:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Underdog

Anyone else notice that no matter which side Tom Cruise was on, he always played the underdog? People always root for the underdog JayKeaton 16:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


Its an inherrent part of these formulaic hollywood films: good guy is hard done by, good guy undergoes some transformation (usually shown with a montage), good guy wins over the bad guys.

[edit] Quotes

In the U.S., some audiences, "particularly among Asian-Americans and Japanese," were unimpressed or even insulted, by the seemingly "racist, naïve" notion of a "white man teaching the rapidly modernizing Japanese how to honor their past," and ultimately become The Last Samurai.

We need specific people saying those things. See: [[1]] or [[2]]. The Yahoo Groups link just says that there were negative reviews. That means the Yahoo Groups link is a secondary source, not a primary source. The quotes from Tom Long and Tomomi Katsuta are primary sources - they are not summaries / generalizations about reviews, they are reviews. Also, the Yahoo Groups link doesn't support the idea that Japanese and Asian-American audiences held those specific views about this film - that they were "unimpressed or often insulted" - it merely says that there was heated debate over whether the several films mentioned were good or bad. You need to find a primary source, which would be people engaging in that actual debate, and quote it. (Tom Long, for the record, is neither Japanese nor Asian-American: see [3].) Gorilla Jones 05:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Hey, great job on that, Bakphp. I think your point is much more strongly expressed now, and the article is better for it. Gorilla Jones 03:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meiji Soldiers Need to be Trained?!

I don't understand why this became part of the story. I mean, they won the battle against the Tokugawas during the Boshin War (which includes the use massive artilleries) and as it was implied in the story, it seems that they can't use guns and won the battle against the Tokugawas by just the use of swords and arrows. --elyu 08:13, 03 August 2006 (UTC)

Uh...they needed to be trained in modern, Western ways of war? --Woogums 01:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

They already knew it during the Meiji era (even before it started). I mean, do you think they will win the Boshin War without the use of firearms?! --elyu 16:15, 04 August 2006 (UTC)

They knew how to use arquebuses and some minor uses of artillery which had been brought by the Dutch and the Portuguese earlier on, and both sides used them. It is a fact that military experts - mostly from Germany - came to Japan to teach specific fighting formations, and how to use distance scales for artillery and modern rifles. And the expansion of the army to create a major standing force needed large-scale training. Regardless, I don't really see what the point of this argument is? --Woogums 15:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the kind of military modernization described in The Last Samurai was already largely achieved by the time of the Boshin War ten years before, in 1868. Even the appearance of Gatling guns in Japan goes back to that time (deployed by Imperial forces in the Naval Battle of Miyako), as well as fleets of modern steam warships. Modernization had already advanced at a fast pace during the Bakumatsu period, even before the restoration of the Meiji Emperor. Regards PHG 08:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It also neglects that the other side used guns and cannon as well. The idea that they fought solely with traditional weaponry is ridiculous. Jachra 00:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing

"BIG FAT TITTIES!!!!!"

Very, very unprofessional. This comment, which I have deleted from the actual article, is not only rude but rather vulgar. Whoever this was, please don't do it again.--Aznpride05 23:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nathan's Fate

Ok, the end of the film does insinuate that Nathan survived the battle. But shouldn't the possibility of him dying(as stated in the narration at the end of the film that some said he had died) be noted in the article?


[edit] Comparisons to Dances With Wolves

Did anyone else see the comparisons to this movie? I found an interesting imdb forum post on this. [4]

Choice bits:

When I watched the Last Samurai my first thought was, wow this is just like Dances with Wolves. That movie is about an american who is captured by a foreign force of traditionalists in a country with a different culture, and who later acculturates so strongly into that culture that he abandons his old values and fights the injustices in his own country. There may be other simularities. Maybe the creators of the Last Samurai ripped ideas from Dances with Wolves?

I thought the same thing. Although I love both movies, I call The Last Samurai .... "Dances with Samurai"

I felt like it was more similar to Lawrance of the Arabia. A man who is in love with another culture and becomes in some way an inspiration and a leader to them.

I wouldn't so much call him a leader but rather an "akicita"--a warrior or soldier who defended the group and became one the them.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../t/h/e/Talk%7EThe_Last_Samurai_be76.html"