Talk:The Last Battle
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[edit] Film
will The Last battle be filmed
- Dunno. It'd be a chore, although based on his track record Peter Jackson might be up to it. Ellsworth 23:02, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" has been produced as TV drama a number of times, and I think there is a feature length production of it as well. As the best known of the series, it can attract production money, but the other volumes in the series are unlikely to do so since the probable audience would be small. Modern animation techniques would make a realistic production possible, but you know the showbiz saying, "Never work with children or animals", and this would be an exercise in doing both at once.
Agreed. Ellsworth 20:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Racial issues
I had to chop out a section specifically comparing the Calormenes with Muslims. There are numerous dark-skinned races in the world, not all of whom are Muslim. Not even all Arabic people are Muslim. And there is more evidence that Lewis based the Calormene god Tash on the false gods of the Old Testament, rather than Allah. If one reads the epic books the Arabian Nights and the Shahnama, I think they will find rather close resemblances between the characters/styles and the Calormenes. MaryAnderson
Have you seen the illustrations in the original published version of Last Battle? There is absolutely no doubt that the Calormenes are portrayed as Saracens and the Narnians as Crusaders. To state this is not to equate Tash with Allah (Tash is clearly a Satan figure) but to recognise a source from which Lewis drew.
- Authors of fiction very rarely have any control over the "packaging" (cover, illustrations, even the title) that is incorporated into the finished version which is marketed by the publisher, which, after all, bears the financial risk of the work's success or failure. Unless there is proof that Lewis specifically authorized the illustrations, they have no bearing on his racial/cultural attitudes. Ellsworth 19:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
- Lewis was not stupid. He must have realised that the Calormenes would be read as resembling medieval Muslim Arabs. Tash is a demonic figure, of course, and may be based on pagan gods (seen as demonic by many Christians). But again, giving those characters who resemble Muslim Arabs a monotheistic religion based on the worship of Tash will inevitably make some readers think that Lewis is equating Tash with the Muslim Allah (however unlike the monstrous Tash Allah actually is). In fact, Lewis has not gone out of his way to avoid readers doing that, quite the opposite, with Tash's worshippers speaking of him in a way that has some formal and rhythmic resemblance to well-known English-language versions of how Allah commonly is spoken of. It sounds as if he is parodying Islam. It's not surprising that there is a lot of discussion around as to what Lewis was getting at with this. I have no specific changes to the article in mind, but I don't think there is any need to be soft on Lewis about the issue when it is brought up. There's other evidence that he didn't have a high opinion of Islam, so there's no reason to pretend otherwise. That said, I also see no reason to get bogged down in this in the article. It's a relatively peripheral point to this particular article. Metamagician3000 01:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tash
There is not critical unanimity on the identity of Tash: Peter J. Schakel points out he has more in common with various pagan deities that with the biblical figure of Satan. That's why I put the reference to Termagant in the Commentary section. Ellsworth 16:22, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Views of others beliefs
Removed this para:
- The "stereotype" could be easily understood, as in our world today it obvious that Christians believe the Muslims believe in a false god and false religion. Many people of both religions try to say that it is the same god, although C.S. Lewis merely writes of the popular Christian belief that this is not true.
Does anyone contend that this is not trolling? Ellsworth 21:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Could the book be banned from schools?
Dropped this sentence:
- The use of the word "Darkies" alone is probably sufficient for it to be dropped from most school libraries of today, however common a term it might have been in 1955.
Until a source is cited showing widespread dropping of books from school libraries for mildly "racist" content. Ellsworth 20:54, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You know any school libraries that approve books with "racist content"? Even "mildly racist content"? Like "darkie" or "yid" or "spic" or "kaffir" or "golliwog"? Outside of the southern US states? Name some. Go on. Do your children go to schools with libraries which have books which contain "mildly racist content" and is that OK with you? Do their schools have these books? I am pleased to say mine don't.
- To give the most famous example, Huckleberry Finn has been the subject of occasional banning efforts, due to its seeming pro-slavery attitude and its frequent including of the "n-word". Nevertheless, it was available and, in fact, used in the curriculum, of the school where I grew up, which was not in the Southern U.S. Ellsworth 00:42, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I actually first read the Narnia series from books at my at school. Although, I live in Canada, so it's different. But I see no reason why this book would be banned in schools, today. I'd understand if they had a problem with it promoting too much religion.--70.48.172.240 6 July 2005 06:01 (UTC)
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- It may be banned in some areas of the US, but I haven't ever seen it Banned in schools in the UK. Jacobshaven3 11:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that any discussion of religious prejudice and racism needs to include the subplot of Emeth, who is described in positive terms, befriended by the main characters, and welcomed by Aslan with the interesting line "The service thou hast done for Tash, I account as service done for me". And the only characters using the racial slurs are the vicious dwarves, not the heroes. Does that count as "racist content"? If so, does "To Kill a Mockingbird" have "racist content" because the little girl uses the N-word (and is promptly scolded by her father)? CharlesTheBold 05:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC) CharlesTheBold
[edit] Content of the Commentary section
I have removed the sentence discussing the validity of Pullman's views - this article is not the place for that, perhaps it would be better to put that discussion in an article about Pullman. Also I have removed the sentence about the Telmarines and the South Sea portal - the Telmarines were not natural rulers of Narnia and the South Sea portal was not one used by the main protagonists, the English children of the Narnia cycle. These sentences were both unnecessary rebuttals of points made in the previous sentences, and appear to have been inserted by a contributor who does not agree with criticism of the book.
The aim of the commentary section should not be to take sides, either criticising Lewis and his work, or being overly defensive of him, as that is inappropriate in a Wikipedia article. An article on a work of literature should mention and discuss issues which have been raised by critics without setting out to judge those issues or promote a particular conclusion. The racism and misogyny charges are important and an article about the book is incomplete without a mention of them, but the article should not attempt to adjudicate a debate.
I have also removed the reference to Tash being a Mexican figure - unless an independent reference to this interpretation can be supplied?
- Despite the above edits, large parts of the 'commentary' section seem rather POV to me, still biased towards denying the criticism of the book. --Urbane legend 11:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the part which said 'The Last Battle is harder to enjoy on a purely superficial level as a fairy story, particularly at the end' for its bias. That's only one person's opinion without critical evidence to support it. 'Fairy story'?? =P Cariel 18:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Su's fall
Can we agree that Su's fall is not prefigured in the other books? It is evident in P. Caspian. If memory serves, she was the last to admit to seeing Aslan, right? -- D. F. Schmidt (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Puzzle's Role
To me, the article makes it look like Puzzle the donkey was in agreeance and consciously working with Shift's plan and never does it mention that it received redemption from Aslan. Nothing major, but I just don't want Puzzle getting a bad rap. --HansTAR 01:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- I agree - the comparison with the Antichrist is not with Puzzle - Puzzle is merely one of those whom the Antichrist will deceive --Tim4christ17 11:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] stable
After passing the stable door Lucy tells Tirian that "in our world, too, a Stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world." What is she talking about here (just out of curiosity)? I don't think I've ever heard of such a story (although it could be referring to the birth of Jesus) Scorpionman 02:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC) I'd say it's refering to the birth of Jesus, because she might be saying that Jesus was more important the our whole world.--Mechanical Gecko 01:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- According to Lewis's point of view the Christ would also be literally bigger, corresponding to an infinite reality.--MWAK 12:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Missing stuff, need to confirm
In the book I believe the calmormenes went through the door and instead of seeing Aslan, saw Tash. Then Tash precided to eat them, because they had believed he was a merciless god. Father time, mentioned in the silver chair, I think, also wakes and darkness decends on Narnia, everyone runs through a door to heaven. It is also probably important to note the prophecy when there is blood on the unicorns horn the world will end (or something like that, I'm still looking for it) Lastly it should probably be mentioned the last paragraph, possibly in quote "And for us this is the end of all stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But that was only the beginning of the real story. all their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on forever: in which every chapter is better than the one before it" Anyways, I need to make sure all these adds are okay. Superbowlbound Possible photo of Tash? http://myspace-370.vo.llnwd.net/00431/07/35/431805370_l.jpg
[edit] Chapters
I think the chapter listings for the Chronicles of Narnia books should be removed. I started a discussion at Talk:The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe#Chapters--roger6106 03:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Consider it done. They are unneccessary. b_cubed 03:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
