Talk:The Hague

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Perhaps the .ogg file format could be changed to something everybody can read. .ogg files aren't exactly popular among the masses and I'm having trouble finding a codec to read it.

Please somebody remove that The Hague is the capital of The Netherlands. Amsterdam is the capital of the netherlands

The article already specifically states that Amsterdam is the capital. Also, this is wikipedia. If you want to change something, you can change it yourself :) Patrick Rasenberg

"Please somebody remove "model united nations" from the UN institutions summary. A model united nations is merely a student debating conference and is not affiliated with the UN"


"'s-Gravenhage literally means "The counts' hedge"."

No it does not. It means "The Count's Hedge". 's-Graven is a singular (compare German "des Grafen").

One thing I wonder: if I were to alphabetize The Hague, would I put it under 'T' or 'H'? "The Hague", or "Hague, The"?

--Furrykef 15:23, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The count's hedge is singular too, I think? I'd put it under the T, by the way. Just treat it as a name without meaning.

In Dutch lists, the most common practice seems to be to sort "Den Haag" under the D, and "'s Gravenhage" under the G, possibly because the "s" is not capitalized. Eugene van der Pijll 14:33, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think the point, in case anyone's still confused, is that "the counts'" is "of the counts" (plural), whereas "the count's" is "of the count" (singular) - subtle, but different. - IMSoP 16:20, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

"Indo" is the correct term for people of mixed Dutch-Indonesian descent. "Indisch" refers to "full-blooded" Indonesians from "Nederlands Indië".

Contents

[edit] Official name

The problem is, that the official name of the city ís in fact Den Haag - 's-Gravenhage was thought up in the 17th century, because The Hague sounded too common. The name 's-Gravenhage was found in analogy with another city in The Netherlands: 's-Hertogenbosch (the capital of the Dutch province of Noord-Brabant) was (and still is) called Den Bosch ("The Woods", official name 's-Hertogenbosch means The Duke's Woods). Also for a lot of Dutch people it is not clear that The Hague's official name is Den Haag, but you can see it if you drive to the city by car; all signs say Den Haag, and also the official city signs say Den Haag, while every sign pointing to Den Bosch says 's-Hertogenbosch. (nl:Gebruiker:Arvey)

Your history of the names Den Haag and 's-Gravenhage is correct. The conclusion that Den Haag is the official name isn't. Cities (and other towns) in the Netherlands do not have any official status, and therefore they do not have official names. Municipalities are the lowest level of jurisdictions with an official status (except for stadsdelen), with names that are determined by the national government. The name for the municipality that The Hague is in, is 's-Gravenhage, since about 1810, when the municipalities were formed by the French.
For the city, both names are used, but Den Haag is preferred by most. For the municipality, only 's-Gravenhage is correct, even though many people use the other name. Including the municipality itself (see www.denhaag.nl). Eugene van der Pijll 13:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if I remember correctly (I can not find a relevant URL), the city council of The Hague renamed the city in 1987 officially to "Den Haag". This is why they use "Den Haag" now in official letters and no longer "'s Gravenhage". It is however a valid question whether or not the city can decide this themselves.

[edit] Donating photos

All the photos in my Flickr account are Creative Commons-licensed so feel free to use them on Wikipedia. I'm too lazy to add the photos myself, so I'm leaving it up to you guys. http://flickr.com/photos/kentwang/tags/thehague/

Thanks, I took one picture of the beach and put it on the page. Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] Centraal Station

Why is the Centraal Station called Centraal Stataion?,if it's near Wassenaar on the north? (If you go to Renbaan Duindigt,you see a sign that says Wassenaar.)

-Just politics. The Hague felt that having a central station would give the city some extra status, so in 1975 The Hague got its central station. If you can read Dutch, read http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centraal_station

[edit] "The Hague" vs. "Hague, The"

I have taken the liberty to move this page (and some others for the same reason).

Properly alphabetized, the word "The" is normally eliminated from the title (ex. "Royal Canadian Mounted Police"). In this case, however, it is put at the end of the title since the word "The" is formally recognized as part of the city's name. This is the convention followed in written dictionaries and encyclopedias.

I have read the above discussion regarding the Dutch name and recognize that the convention may differ in their language. However, I have looked this up in other dictionaries to confirm the English convention.

The provious page will obviously redirect to the new one.

Brent Woods

I have moved ot back to The Hague, as "Hague, The" simply is not correct. There is also no consensus on moving the page, so please discuss this first if you want to do this. User:Prasenberg

Wikipedia has a policy of using the definite article where it features as part of a name, (eg, The Guardian as opposed to the Irish Independent). The Hague is one such case and is correct. Hague is incorrect. It is bad enough making unilateral changes without making the wrong ones. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\(caint) 23:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)) is to avoid the "The" if it's not really part of the name, but put it at the beginning if it is. The rationale for the latter part is simply that, in running text, you would not write "he was born in Hague, The"; the reason books use the notation is for alphabetical sorting - if you read "he was born in The Hague (qv)" you have to look under 'H' not 'T' because otherwise 'T' would have a whole subsection to itself. Arguably, the title of the article is still "The Hague", it is just sorted differently. Wikipedia doesn't have that problem: if the whole encyclopedia is ever printed, or where there are usable alphabetical table[s] of contents, ways around this will have to be found, but while the main form of navigation is in-text hyperlinks, there is no need for any special sorting tricks. - IMSoP 12:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
It's just that there is no such thing as a "Hague" over here (I live in the city). "The Hague" is simply a name. Obviously one would not say "He is born in Hague, The.", but also "He was born in Hague." would be meaningless. The name of the city is simply "The Hague". :) Anyway, it seems we all agree on the proper name of the page. Patrick Rasenberg
Precisely - the only meaningful title is the one we already have. and that is fully supported by existing policy, and by both my and Jtdirl's comments above - no need for "it's just that", it's just correct. ;) - IMSoP 17:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
OK. I won't try to fight the consensus, nor will I try to move it again. But the fact is that I had consulted with the Oxford Dictionary and the World Book Encyclopedia prior to my moving this page. "Hague, The" is how the title appears in a written encyclopedia. I can, however, agree that this is not a significant issue since we can keep "Hague, The" as a redirect page.
Cheers - Brent Woods
Your mistake in consulting other reference books on this matter is that they use "Hague, The" not because that is the "universally correct" title for "a written encyclopedia", but because it is the correct title according to their naming conventions. Wikipedia has its own naming conventions, as described and linked to above, which happen to be different - because Wikipedia is different from those publications, and is not a slave to tradition. Note that the redirect at "Hague, The" has exactly one article linking to it, and that's in a list of articles in another encyclopedia - because there is no situation where it is natural to link there, and our naming convention doesn't require you to; OTOH, it may be useful for visitors trying to guess our naming conventions and incorrectly expecting the "Hague, The" form, so it's no bad thing that it's there. - IMSoP 18:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Having read the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), I now understand the conventions and I stand corrected. Brent Woods


Sorry to bring this up again, but I have another question on a similar note. The original reason that I questioned the convention was that I had browsed through the Special:Allpagespage and found "The Hague" listed under "T", not "H" (until I added the redirect page). Thus, if another article was to have an alphabetical list of cities in the Netherlands, where should "The Hague" appear on that list? I ask because this could cause some confusion since one would expect to look under "H". (One possible solution would be to list it as "Hague, The" but link to this page as is.) Brent Woods

Under "T", as "The Hague" is the name of the city. In Dutch it is usually under "D", as "Den Haag" is the Dutch name. Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] Thronespeech

I noticed a mistake in this page. The Knight's Hall is indeed still used for political events, but I think the writer intended to name the Thronespeech and not the opening of parliament (this is not the same). The most important event of the Dutch political year is on the third tuesday of september when it's Prinsjesdag'. The Queen will go to the Knights Hall and deliver the Thronespeech, which entails all the major plans of the government for the coming year. This is not the opening of parliament.

[edit] What's an hague?

What does "hague" mean? --Abdull 12:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

No offence, but try reading the article, where you will find the following:

"Later, the counts of Holland used The Hague as their administrative center. 'Des Graven Hage' literally means "The counts' hedge" or "The count's private enclosure"

IMSoP 20:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, that answer leaves me as puzzled as before. I'd also like to know what "The Hague" means (yes, yes, I know, "the count's hedge"). What I mean is, why does this city, alone out of all the world's cities, it would seem, have an article as part of its name? Why "The" Hague? (Plus, the explanation about "the count's hedge" only further confuses things: what does a count's hedge have to do with the city?) And I think an explanation of this belongs in the article as well. --ILike2BeAnonymous 04:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
There are more cities with an article in their name. In the Netherlands it is fairly common: Den Helder is an example, and there are many more smaller towns. In France, I know of Le Havre and La Haye. The Hague is perhaps the only city with an article that has an English name. I don't think it's that interesting, really.
I think that the word "hedge" ("haag" in Dutch) originaly not only referred to a hedge, but also to the area enclosed by a hedge. So the city is named after the territory owned by the count of Holland, which was enclosed by a hedge. Probably a reference to Willem II's hunting lodge. Eugene van der Pijll 13:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Haag was used as a synonym of "court".--MWAK 10:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
here are some more (well known) examples::

Las Vegas actually means The Fertile valleys, and Los Angeles - The Angels (from Spanish translation I believe - no doubt due to eb corrected by someone out there!!) So, The Hague seems to be quite in order and, as there are many many examples of place names borne from items throughout the world, The Count's Hedge seems, to me, to be one of the least confusing of the lot!!.

[edit] The Hague Tribunal?

I know there is/was a peace court in The Hague called "The Hague Tribunal", but I cant find any information about it and it's not mentioned here. Anyone know anything about it? -- Fwahobadagadz

See Hague Tribunal. The link The Hague Tribunal also works now. Eugene van der Pijll 17:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] european pattent office

Hi. Could somebody add European Patent Office http://www.european-patent-office.org/index.en.php ? it is quite a big international organisation too. I don't know how to add it :) thanks.a.

The EPO has been on the page several times already and I removed it everytime. The EPO is not in The Hague, it is in Rijswijk. This is a town very close to The Hague and maybe be almost indistinguishable from The Hague, but it is not The Hague. I know, because while I live in The Hague, I work literally around the corner from the EPO. Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] according to its webpage, The Hague is not a city

The Hague's official webpage states at http://www.thehague.nl/default.asp?id=DOORWAYNEWS-uk

"The Hague was originally a hamlet close to the count's castle built in the 13th century. The village was first recorded in a document dated 1370, but has never been granted a Charter. Charters entitled medieval villages to erect defence walls and dig moats to protect their citizens. It also gave villages certain privileges, including the right to administer justice. Attempts by The Hague to obtain a Charter were continuously thwarted, although noblemen in the Large Hall of the Count’s Castle administered justice. In 1811, The Hague was granted a 48-hour Charter by Napoleon, when he proclaimed The Hague 'Bonne Ville de l'Empire'. Passing through on his journey from Amsterdam to Paris, he refused to stay in a village.

"Even today, The Hague has no Charter. From 1851, local legislation no longer distinguishes between city and countryside. The Netherlands now only has municipalities, with the exception of Amsterdam, which is a city under the Dutch Constitution. 's-Gravenhage -- the official name for The Hague, literally tranlated as 'the Count's hedge' -- was never awarded city rights. Although The Hague gives an outward appearance of being a full-fledged city, it is still today known as 'the largest village of Europe'. Even though voices whispered 'The Hague is the third largest city of the Netherlands' with a population of 450,000, it was still not granted its charter when it celebrated its 750 anniversary in 1998."

Accordingly, the following language in the current Wikipedia entry would appear to be innaccurate:

"The Hague was finally named a city by the French occupation force in 1806, centuries after other Dutch cities had received similar rights. All this has led to the urban legend that The Hague is not a city but a village."

The best sourced information that I can found is from the "Repertorium of city rights" at http://www.stadsrechten.nl. The Hague received several of the city privileges between 1451 and 1559; king Louis Napoleon declared The Hague to be the third city of his kingdom on Tuesday 25 November 1806; emperor Napoleon affirmed that in 1811, which meant that the mayors could come to his coronation. In 1814, the new Dutch government also classified The Hague as a city.
I would say the wikipedia entry is mostly accurate. Eugene van der Pijll 20:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I actually saw the official documents confirming the city charter myself once, when I visited the official city archive back in the 1980s. The story as noted in the current article is something the staff explained to me in some detail, as they get this question all the time :) Patrick Rasenberg

[edit] Translating 'Stadsdeel'

A quick note about translating 'stadsdeel'. Possible translations include 'borough' and 'district'. I have seen 'district' used in English-language city hall press releases. 'District' seems better since a borough usually has its own council whereas The Hague's stadsdelen do not have councils.

The Hague is one of three municipalities in the Netherlands with stadsdelen. The other ones are Rotterdam and Amsterdam. I think it is best if the same words are used in all of these cities, just like in Dutch. And in those cities, there are elected councils ("stadsdeelraden"), so they can really be called "boroughs". I think. So I prefer "borough" for The Hague as well. But it's not an important issue to me. (At the moment though, "district" is used several times in this article as a translation for "wijk", e.g. for Binckhorst and Bezuidenhout. That is not correct, IMHO) -- Eugene van der Pijll 22:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "poorest in Western Europe"

The claim that the Schilderswijk was the poorest city quarter in Europe in the 1980s is very hard to believe. I would like to see a reference to back up that claim.

[edit] Adding people

Recently many people have been added to the "famous people from The Hague" list. However, most of them are completely unknown, at least to me and I usually follow sports and would like to think that I am somewhat knowledgable about people from my hometown. Especially in the English version of this article, I propose that we only add people to this list who at the very least are well known in The Netherlands but also are known internationally. Any objections to this? Patrick Rasenberg

Yes, I do object. Wikipedia tries to be as complete as possible. If someone is unknown to you, well sorry; that might even be the best reason to keep them there! Or are we just adding info that's "known" to us?? That would be a bit strange, wouldn't it? There were sportspeople listed with a longer track record in their discipline than the people, who you decided should stay on the list. I do however prefer to change "Famous" into "Notable sportspeople". Regards, Darius Dhlomo 09:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree it should be more than just whether or not somebody knows a sportsperson or not. I do not agree that completeness is a goal. We could also include all 472,00 people living in The Hague. That would be very complete, but not very useful. To be mentioned on a page about a city, I strongly feel that person needs to be famous (or notable). So winning a major title or event, preferably several times, or being very well known for another reason should be a deciding factor. This is epecially the case on the English version of a page about a Dutch city. One example: you included Tineke Hofland. She did not even reach the finals in the 1972 Olympics swimming event. A person like that is notable nor famous and is not relevant in an article about The Hague. Patrick Rasenberg
And Alex Lely – completely unknown to me and considering his type of sports completely irrelevant as well – is, I presume? Very notable indeed... Someone who competed in the world sport of swimming for Holland in the Summer Olympics, and won several titles back home, is much more "notable" to many people than mister Lely. Subjective, indeed. But that's just my point, which you ignore. Maybe it's best to skip them all. Darius Dhlomo
I have no idea who Alex Lely is, frankly. But if he has not won some major titles, no he should not be on the page. Feel free to google the man and remove him if necessary. If not, I'll do it the next time I edit the page.

[edit] geography

what's the northern european location of the un war crimes court in which the miloshevic trial took place in

At the Prins Clauslaan?


[edit] Poor areas

Their aren't poor areas in the south of The Hague.Actually,'stuck-up' areas like Waldeck,Kijkduin/Ockenburg and Loosduinen are in the south of The Hague.And comparised to Schilderswijk and Transvaal (which isn't in the south and isn't in the east of The Hague) Moerwijk is a paradise.

[edit] Bombs on the Bezuidenhout

Some URLS about the British bombs on the Bezuidenhout:

[edit] Missing sections

I called this a B in my quick review, but it's only just a B. IMHO this article should really have sections on the Economy and Geography, and more information on demographics and local government/politics/administration. Regarding the "famous people" section discussed above, this section is not present in most FAs or GAs on cities; London has had one or two famous people born there, but you won't find room to list them on the London page. If this section must be present, I think you should limit it to the most famous dozen or so people, otherwise it ends up becoming half of the article. If you want a long list, this should be spun off into a separate list. Walkerma 03:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the part about famous people. I always found a bit weird to mention this on a page about a city. I'll see if I clean this up. A paragraph about Economy might be an idea, although the business paragraph covers the most import matters. I am not sure however what a geography paragraph should look like. Can you expand on that? Prasenberg 15:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC) = prasenberg

[edit] People in metropolitan area

The number of people living in the metropolitan area has suddenly been expanded to almost 1 million. Ar there any sources for this? The Hague itself is 472.000. If you include Leidschendam-Voorburg and Rijswijk you'd get to perhaps about 600.000, but probably less. Where are the other 400.000 people? Even if you include Wassenaar, Delft and Wateringen, which in my opinion are really not part of metropolitan The Hague, you get nowhere near 990.000. Prasenberg 15:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC) = prasenberg

To get close to 1mln, you need to include at least Delft, Westland, Zoetermeer (100,000 each), Pijnacker-Nootdorp (40,000), Leidschendam-Voorburg (75,000), Rijswijk (50,000), and Wassenaar (25,000). That is clearly larger than the agglomeration of Den Haag as defined by wikipedia (which I guess would be DH+L-V+Rijswijk+Nootdorp+Wateringen). The definition of the metropolitan area of Den Haag varies; it may well include Wassenaar and Zoetermeer, as there are close economic connections between them and The Hague. But definitions that include Delft as well result in one metropolean area for Rotterdam and The Hague (population 1.5 - 2 mln?) or the Randstad. Best solution perhaps to replace the number with "population of agglomeration of 600,000. Eugène van der Pijll 16:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I will change the text in this fashion. Prasenberg 17:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC) = prasenberg
I've done some research: the number of inhabitants that keeps getting inserted is the population of the region nl:Haaglanden.
CBS (Statistics Netherlands) has four different definitions for the "region The Hague" [1]:
  • Municipality "'s-Gravenhage": pop. 475,000 (only The Hague)
  • Grootstedelijke agglomeratie "'s-Gravenhage": pop. 621,000 (The Hague, plus L-V, Rijswijk and Wassenaar)
  • COROP-region "Agglomeratie 's-Gravenhage": population 780,000 (previous, plus Zoetermeer and Pijnacker-Nootdorp)
  • Stadsgewest "'s-Gravenhage": pop. 991,000 (previous, plus Delft, Westland and Midden-Delfland)
The definition of "grootsedelijke agglomeratie" is available here. Eugène van der Pijll 12:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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