Talk:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World

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[edit] Names of the battles

The titles I gave the battles are how Creasy referred to them in the book (these are the chapter titles). For example, he has "Victory of the Americans over Burgoyne at Saratoga" rather than "Battle of Saratoga". Also "Victory of Arminius over the Roman Legions under Varus" rather than "Battle of Teutenberg Forest". Is there a consensus which we should use? I prefer Creasy's versions, with links to the appropriate articles. Does anyone else have an opinion either way? --JW1805 02:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I agree with using the chapter titles. Cribcage 20:16, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Other battles

I do believe that the "Miracle on the Vistula" of 1920 should be among those listed. Kazak 22:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Given that the war in question preserved the integrity of Poland for only a couple more decades and failed to stop the spread of the USSR's dominion, it's not a decisive battle.

Some other battles to consider. The Battle of Yarmuk kicked off the wave of Islamic conquests in 636 AD by securing Syria for Islam. While the Battle of Tours in 722 AD and the Battle of Vienna in 1683 AD turned back the Umayyads of Hispania and the Ottomans respectively. The Mongolian Empire should have several on the list. After all, the Mongolians were responsible ultimately for the fall of many states. And their few uncontested defeats (eg, at Ain Jalut in 1260 and the two failed invasions of Japan in 1274 and 1281. In the new world, the Battle of Tenochtitlán in 1521 resulted in the fall of the Aztec Empire and the begining of the colonization of the New World by the European powers.

For ancient battles, the defeat of the Assyrians and Egyptians at Carchemish in 605 BC marks both the end of the Assyrian Empire and the end of ancient Egypt as a serious power in the Middle East.

Ultimately, it can be very subjective which wars should be considered sufficiently "decisive" and which ones shouldn't. While it'd be an interesting exercise, I'm not sure it is useful to make a Wikipedia list of decisive battles of history. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KarlHallowell (talk • contribs) 05:43, November 26, 2005.

• This article is about a book. The battles listed are Creasy's choices for "decisive battles". Having an article listing Wikipedians' choices for decisive battles would be original research. --JW1805 ^(Talk) 01:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

But the whole point of the book is to show how superior Euros are over other peoples! So of course Yarmuk (Arabs > Byzantium) and Carchemish (2 non-European states) wouldn't count. Although Tenochtitlan and Vienna were two European victories with important consequences. Hmm. Also, I don't think any Mongol victory (or defeat, for that matter) is particularly famous. Brutannica 02:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

In case anyone cares, here are my own opinions:

• Tsushima - showed the world decisively that an East Asian country could defeat a European one;
• Manzikert - a major setback for the Byzantine Empire, first entry of the Turks into Turkey, set the stage for the Crusades
• Yarmuk
• Salamis, instead of Marathon - I think Persia just burned its fingers with Marathon, in 480 B.C.E. the threat was much more serious
• Sekigahara maybe - ended the Warring States Era in Japan, inaugurated the Edo period of peace & prosperity
• Panipat - first entry of Moguls in India
• Tenochtitlan
• Talas River - pushed Chinese out of Central Asia
• probably Gettysburg instead of Vicksburg

Of course, there are many wars and battles in history, and their importance easily depends on how important you gauge various peoples and countries as being (example: the Texan historian). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brutannica (talk • contribs) January 30, 2006.

The battles listed are Creasy's choices for "decisive battles". Having an article listing Wikipedians' choices for decisive battles would be original research. JW is right as usual. It really does not matter what we think are the 15 most decisive battles of world history. (and Midway, for instance, has made every list done since WWII) This article is about the book by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy, and HIS list. 11:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title?

My Barnes&Noble edition of this book lists it as Fifteen Decisive Battles of the Western World: From Marathon to Waterloo-while this article's title leaves out the western part. Does anyone know which one is correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by YankeeDoodle14 (talk • contribs) September 2, 2006.

• The Barnes&Noble edition is wrong. The title of Creasy's book doesn't have "Western" in it. --JW1805 (Talk) 03:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The title of Creasy's book doesn't have "Western" in it, period. What someone does to puff up sales doesn't change what the original title BY THE AUTHOR was. old windy bear 11:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)