Talk:The Doors

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[edit] Rick And The Ravens

You have twiced removed Manzarak was already in a band called Rick And The Ravens while Krieger and Densmore were playing with The Psychedelic Rangers, but knew Manzarek from shared meditation instruction. The latter two, along with a female bass player, were rapidly recruited and the band took up a number of club residences first at LA's "London Fog" and later the "Whiskey-A-Go-Go". in favor of a statement that Manzarek and Morrison thought they should start a band at once. Hardly an improvement.

[Hello. Considering wikipedia is about collaboration, then these statements can be seen as fine. It is an interesting fact that once Manzarek heard Morrison's poetry/lyrics that they decided to start a band, and then did it! I thought that there was too much before the Doors info and only one short sentence about just 2 of the band members and their musical qualities. It seemed unbalanced. See reason below. But the more facts the better.]

You twice removed this: Their music tended to be focused around the swirling keyboards of Ray Manzarek, whose left hand played the parts typically associated with bass guitar, and Robbie Krieger's guitar playing, which showed the influence of flamenco, indian, the blues and classical music. in favor of nothing. Why remove this information unless it's incorrect or POV?

[I thought that this one sentence about 2 of the 4 Doors musicians to be incomplete. That's why I tried to write about the entire musical qualities of the Doors throughout.]

That's fair enough, but maybe instead you could add information on the other band members? Removing information, especially without explaining why, is highly suspect around here.

You've twice removed this: The Doors quickly earned a reputation as an entertaining live act: at their concerts anything could, and often did, happen. The best-known of Morrison's onstage antics took place at a 1970 concert in Morrison's hometown of Melbourne, FL, where Morrison allegedly exposed himself during the show's finale. Although Morrison was not photographed in the act, Dade county law enforcement subsequently charged him with lewd behavior and "simulation of oral copulation". After watching Morrison urge audience members to rush the stage at a 1966 concert, guitarist Pete Townshend of the Who incorporated the scene into the song Sally Simpson, which later appeared on the album Tommy. ... I understand that you are a Doors fan, and I enjoy their music also, in small doses, but this is a notorious incident that deserves coverage.

[Morrison exposed is inconclusive. It was only misdemeaner charges against him that were completed. Much more important is The Doors capabilities to bring about a common ground with their audiences. The Doors page should focus on their music.]

[The partial statement of "at their concerts anything could, and often did, happen" is pure innuendo. Just the facts...I will venture to say the Miami incident is not the 'best-known' of Morrison's antics. I believe it should not have a spot. It is too tabloid like. It played no part in what The Doors accomplished musically. ]

Nonetheless people know about it. The Beatles playing on the roof of Apple Studios is also not crucial to what they accomplished musically--they can gather a crowd, so what? We knew that. But we include that anyway because it's a famous incident.

And twice added this: The Doors are remembered for shaministic live performances, Jim Morrison's antics off stage, but most enduringly, the use of their musical talents to influence and entertain music lovers around the world for over 35 years. The "shamanistic live performances" I could imagine including; the antics are already included; "the use of their musical talents to influence and entertain music lovers around the world for over 35 years" sounds like a phrase lifted from a PR kit for the Doors. In other words, it's POV. Tempered quite a bit and attributed, I could imagine keeping it; otherwise, no.

[Hey, not every band of whatever era is remembered, and appreciated 35 years later...POV? It seems to be a fact that the Doors albums are selling very well. I thought this sentence was pretty well written. There's mentioning of the interesting live performances, Morrison's problems in the every day world, and yes, does very much sound PR kitty, But there is a reality of The Doors musical legacy. It's still happening. A most important fact about The Doors music is that it incorporates political and social statements that are, even today, so relevent.]

These are all fine points; maybe you could rephrase them and add them. I agree with you that the Doors' albums are selling well, as are many albums from 35 years ago, but if that's what you want to say, then that's what you say. I doubt many people would disagree with you. When you leap from the fact that they sell well to "the use of their musical talents to influence and entertain music lovers around the world for over 35 years," which seems brazenly uncritical, is when the POV bells go off.

This: As with many other artists, Billie Holiday,Jimi Hendrix,Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison's overindulgences often coexisted with artistic creativity. Yes. So what? you left out John Lennon, Bob Marley, Frank Zappa, etc. but that's hardly relevant. Where does it get us to compare these artists? What are you aiming for--drawing spurious comparisons between distinct artists with little else in common? Or pointing us towards the tragedy that was the lives of different artists? How does that help us, and serve as anything more than anecdote?

[The artists, Jim Morrison, Billie Holiday, Jimi Hendrix,and Janis Joplin; it's not their Lives that are the tragedy, it's their Deaths. That's the relationship between them all.

[ It's a part of these famous, intelligent, incredibly creative people that thay are all "human", with notorious mistakes, problems in the spotlight, But, still able to do their art. Yes, the list of artists could go on...although Bob Marley did not have a known drug problem. notice it is a list of artists with known heavy drug use, and died behind the drugs. Besides the ingenius idea of a collaborative encyclopedia, one of the best aspects about wikipedia,is the links to the rest of wikipedia. ] [ Morrison's paraphrased statements about individual freedom are correct. Their interesting, but an exact quote might be better. Thanks for communicating. This is fun! I'm Xio. Thanks, the people using Wikipedia works so well that World Peace can't be far off...]

This: In a few short years, Morrison, 27, would disappear and be 'buried' under mysterious circumstances. Most people believe he wasn't "buried" but buried, and to state otherwise is POV. There was, earlier, a section about the belief that Morrison might be alive. This is something I will look up and add back. [edit: I was wrong, it was in the article on Morrison himself, not The Doors] This: Though Morrison's unique energy in the Doors is missed, the music hasn't ended for other band members. Calling Morrison's contribution a "unique energy" is strikingly POV. And we know that "the music hasn't ended" because the other albums were already mentioned.

[POV for another fact? When Morrison left the band, The Doors weren't the same.]

I agree with you on that one, and for what it's worth, I think the band is worse without Jim Morrison. If you want to convey that, though, you should find someone--a well-known music critic would be best--to attribute it to.

This: Beginning during the the 1960's The Doors tested the freedom of artistic expression by blending blues and folks music into their own form of rock-n-roll poetry. Um, no. I'm sorry. This statement needs serious rephrasing, attribution, and qualification. The Doors did not test the freedom of artistic expression, especially in light of the considerably more radical--artistically radical and trailblazing--work of The Beatles, Frank Zappa, etc. at the same time. If you wanted to mention the "rock poems" in some other way, that's fine, and a hallmark of The Doors' style, but no more trailblazing than I am when going from my room to the kitchen. Koyaanis Qatsi

[Talk about POV...they did test. People were at the tests. According to The Doors,, they were exploring past any sort of boundry.. I would say that all artists test the freedom of their individual artistic expression. It seems that's what a great artist does. In various recorded statements given by all the members of The Doors, they were doing rock-n-roll poetry. It can be more than one person or group that's doing the innovative things. If I am to understand your thoughts on the Doors being as trailblazing as you walking from your room to the kitchen... I'm pretty sure there's no video camera taping you, no sound equipment recording your steps... and almost positive, 35 years from now, millions of people won't be watching and listening to you walk from room to room. Could be someone is POVing about The Doors being a music group that had intelligent insight into not only their own minds, but American society.

You have a good point that they tested the limits of artistic freedom within their own limits; however, I'd argue that that is what every artist does, from John Denver to John Coltrane. If I told you that John Denver tested the limits of artistic freedom, wouldn't you snicker? Again, perhaps you can rein in the statement a bit. If you mentioned other famous and influential bands with positive things to say about The Doors, or the ongoing sales of their albums, or perhaps the appearance of their albums on various best-of lists, those would be better ways to say what you're trying to say. Or you could even mention how excited the Doors were when they found out that The Beatles bought 10 of their first album (why 10, when there were only 4 Beatles? I don't know). Best, Koyaanis Qatsi 17:27 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[It's a tricky business when articles start comparing one artist against another. Years from now, will people look up an entry for Jimi Hendrix and it say; 'considering all the advances in modern music, many other new artists are much more important'. We can't always look to famous people for their views on other famous people. It stands that The Doors were an important part of rock-n-roll history. To mention that the Doors were excited about the Beatles buying their album, seems more hearsay, and not really relevent to The Doors music history. I did say that artists seem to test their own limits of creative freedom. The facts are the Doors have been quoted saying what they were doing and what they were trying to achieve. It all has to do with having fun, testing limits, and presenting ideas for people to think on.]

What do you think of this revision?--Xio

I think it's the exact same one you've been making, with the exact same faults I've already pointed out. Koyaanis Qatsi 06:44 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The Doors are not just about Morrison. To end the article, with that they are not just remebered for their live performances and Morrison's antics on and off the stage just doesn't seem to cut it. It is misleading to write what you said about Miami. It's unbalanced to just write about how unsuccessful the Doors were after Morrison died. The band is still popular. It is so Important that The Doors were political and socially conscious with their music.

  1. If the Doors aren't just about Morrison, you might do better to leave the information about Densmore in, and add information on the other band members, as I've already suggested.
  2. The Miami incident is notorious, regardless of whether you want it to be.
  3. The band is still popular, possibly, I don't know. I'd venture to say that most people aren't familiar with their work released after Morrison's death, and that if they aren't they're not fond of it. The people I know who like the Doors consider it subpar, if not downright exploitative.
  4. Politically and socially conscious? Ok, that should be backed up with specific lyrics. I'm willing to believe you, but you'll have to refresh my memory. Koyaanis Qatsi 07:32 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

It would be great if you added info on other members. This is not about whether I want the miami incident to be known, whether I think it's notorious, I'm willing to quess that 1. not even 80% of people who've heard of the doors know about the incident. 2. when they have heard of it, the info. is usually incorrect. And the whole statement about Townsend is more fodder without balance.

I don't know anything about the other members, however I do know that by removing information on Krieger you're achieving the opposite of what you claim to want. I'll do some research so I can add about Manzarek and Densmore.
As far as the Miami incident goes, you're contradicting both the biographer of Morrison and the movie about him (which, admittedly, gets many things wrong). If you want to discount the incorrect story, perhaps you could cite sources showing why the story commonly believed is incorrect. Koyaanis Qatsi 07:43 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)


yes, your right, don't talk about Oliver Stone'e movie as a ruler for reality. I'm not contradicting anybody. Your saying it's so notorious, it's just got to be mentioned. I'm saying you've got 20% of the page on the Doors about misdemeaner charges against jim Morrison. Included with another story about Morrison's "crazy' character. The article is about the Doors music that was and is to still many people politically, socially conscious. But not just that...

Well he was charged with a felony also, "lewd and lascivious conduct," but found innocent. I no longer have the biography I read a few years back, so I'll have to visit the library once it's open. Koyaanis Qatsi 08:00 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I hope this seems more balanced.

I think it looks good. you know, I had the book Densmore wrote, too, but I don't remember much about it except that he said he didn't like the drum parts in "The End." Funny, that. Heh. Anyway, I'll have to go to the library to try to find something to add on him. The other book I had was named after one of the songs, if I remember right, and had a red and yellow cover. Koyaanis Qatsi

Super! Xio

Most critics and fans--and Densmore himself--refer to Densmore's drumming as "jazz drumming." The ones that don't, refer to it as either "imaginative" or "driving" and/or "hypnotic." I don't know how to say those things in a way that's NPOV. I guess if that's what we want to say I should find a notable critic who has said it. It may be in No One Here Gets Out Alive. I'll look for it, but it may take awhile. Oh, and I put Densmore first in the sentence simply because there was the least to say about his playing. Koyaanis Qatsi 18:18 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think it reads smooth. Xio

FYI. Judge Bans Two Doors Members From Using Band's Name: http://www.nylawyer.com/display.php/file=/news/05/07/072605k

  • Does anyone else think that 70.58.92.117's recent contribution on September 5 [1], namely the "Trivia" section, seems like copyrighted text? ("External" link goes to diff between versions ... can anyone help me make that an "internal" link?) Boris Alexeev 00:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
    • I guess it's gone now. Any help with the external/internal link is still appreciated. Boris Alexeev 16:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Discography - Singles

Sup everyone i fixed up the old crappy singles chart in discography and put it in a real chart ;) np anyway. contact me if any complaints becuase i dont want it edited unless you notify me...thx chris. needed. ChrisMHMChris.

[edit] What is this?

'The Doors (formed in 1965 in Los Angeles, California) were a popular and influential American rock band. The best way to describe them would be "in this world there are things known and things unknown, everything inbetween are the doors."'

The top of an article is very important, so if there is no name of the guy who said this by tomorrow, this quote will be removed.

If this is some nice quote that someone made up him/herself it will be removed, this quote is too personal. IMO it should be like this

'Mr .... once described the band as : " in this world there are things known and things unknown, everything inbetween are the doors " '

So this will be changed or removed.

Adlous huxley : The doors of preception. The word are natively from his mind but jim has ploted them.

[edit] Too Morrison-centric?

This article is way too Morrison-centric, we need a lot more information on the rest of the band members here. The history section makes little to no mention of the other band members, yet chronicles every one of Morrison’s drunken misadventures. The sections ‘Early recording’ and ‘Mid career controversy’ need to be reworked. Either save the Morrison only stuff for the Morrison article (that’s a novel idea) or add more information about the other band members individually. Probability what Jimmy-boy would have wanted, don’t ya think? camtin 15:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Doors were" vs. "The Doors was"

This has been settled for months now. How is The Doors possibly singular? It is a plural name, even when your talking about more than one door, example: "The Doors are closed." All editors, if RJN does this again, just revert and block him on sight. 67.150.0.37 14:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Ed Sullivan Incident

I notice that the incident of Morrison saying the word "higher" on the Ed Sullivan Show is repeated twice. I don't believe this is neccessary, considering that it is repeated in a passage that starts in the year 1969, although the incident happened in 1967.

Accordionman August 9, 2006

[edit] Recorded Output

The recorded output section makes critical comments on each album of the Doors - Wikipedia isn't for original research. If someone wishes to back each critical comment then they should cite the noted critics whom made these claims. LuciferMorgan 18:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text

Can someone fix the "Wall 'o' Texts" that are in both the article and the Talk section? They're sort of an eyestrain to read.--69.120.52.29 01:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Waiting for the sun?

"Waiting For The Sun contains some strong tracks but is thematically weak."

We had this discussion on last.fm that this album (though it's the doors only number one-album) is the underrated album. This is my and many others favorite album and I think it's wrong to write that it's a weak album. I don't think that any of the tracks on the album are weak.

Anyone feel the same? --Azon 07:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel wikipedia is a place for critical assement. MAYBE if someone went out and read say, 100 contemporary reviews of "WFTS" and was able to supply an annotated list of those reviews, that would be something (it would read "contemporary critical assements of the album placed it below the band's previous efforts..." etc.) But even then I would probably baulk at the inclusion. It is a solid album, to be sure, but "Hello I Love You" is pure Top 40 fodder. Nonetheless... "Spanish Caravan," "Five to One," "Wintertime Love,"... all top shelf stuff. I think "The Soft Parade" is a far weaker effort. Jackbox1971 05:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

The Doors page has been vandalized.

[edit] 40th Anniversary

Someone should write something about the 40th anniversay of the doors. they just released a new book "the doors by the doors", and are also releasing a boxset called "perception"

[edit] Compilation Albums

Is there any reason why the albums are in non-chronilogical order? I am not being critical, I am just wondering. Also, shouldn't a huge band like The Doors have their own discography page? My speciality is Depeche Mode (I know... worlds apart but I am pretty ecclectic) so I wouldn't feel qualified to do one myself but some Doorjammer out there should make it happen. It would be a boon to research. Jackbox1971 05:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discography

Any objection to moving the peripheral elements of the disog to a dedicated page? This would help simplify the overall structure. + Ceoil 00:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I created the gallery (album covers in boxes) for the albums and I have no problem with a page being made for the discog. Knock yourself out Franknotes 13:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I see that a separate page was made but I think it should now be removed from the main Doors article, there's no point having it twice. If there is no objection I'll add a link to the new discography page on the main band article. Franknotes 01:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Singles

Why are the singles listed on the modern rock chart? All The Doors singles charted on the hot 100. The Modern Rock chart didin't even exist then. It was created in 1988

[edit] Biased writing

Albulms being described as "excellent" surely breaches the Encyclopedia style? —The preceding, I think this needs a cleanup.Cubert12345 14:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC) unsigned comment was added by Cubert12345 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Recorded Output

What the fuck is this shit? Retarded crackheads editing wikipedia? I can't believe fans would let this shit even exist in this article. I'm rewriting it even though I don't have very much authority, but bullshits been in here for too long. --AlexOvShaolin 00:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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