Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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[edit] Request for comments: what key doctrines or distinctions are missing from this article.

A short time ago there was no mention of Mormon missionaries in this article, but that has been corrected. Since I brought that topic up a little while ago however, I have been thinking about what major doctrines or distinctions from other groups this article should cover which it doesn't already.

The only thing that comes to my mind is the Church's view of the fall of Adam, which seems like a major difference from other churches to me. Perhaps we should add it somewhere to the article? A sentence or a paragraph at most seems sufficient to me.

Anyway, if anyone thinks of anything else please chime in here. --Lethargy 23:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it depends on what you consider major beliefs. The fall of Adam is covered in the 2nd article of faith, as is the nature of god in the 1st and 3rd. It is tempting to use the Articles of Faith to be a primary source, but I think this is a bad idea as something like the New Jerusalem is a bit obscure, and Temples are not mentioned at all. I think its pretty complete as it stands. But the nature of God needs to be reduced, and the First principals section is really too long. I don't know that we need to compare to mainstream Christianity in this article. There is an article for that. In other words, let the other articles explain things that better fit in them: Plural Marriage, Temples, Priesthood offices, etc. Bytebear 06:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the article should mention anything distinctive, but most things should be mentioned only very briefly, as Bytebear stated, there are articles for most of these topics. It's a challenge, since nobody will ever agree which LDS doctrines are most important and notable. But the purpose of this article, I think, is to point readers in the direction of doctrinal articles on every notable topic of LDS doctrine. So I think the best outline would be something in which every element of LDS doctrine and practice would have a place. I don't know what that is, though. Maybe the following is a start (this is not a heading outline):

  • Metaphysics
    • Preexistence
    • Plan of salvation
    • Nature of the godhead
    • Resurrection, body, and spirit
  • Eschatology
    • Millenium
    • Kingdom of God
    • Survivalism/year's supply
  • Theology of gender and family
    • Eternal families
    • Gender roles
    • Polygamy
  • Ordinances
    • Open ordinances
    • Temple ordinances
    • Ordinances for the dead
  • Participation outside of worship
    • Missionary work
    • Family history
    • Church callings
    • Home teaching/visiting teaching
    • Family home evenings
  • Lifestyle code
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Chastity, modesty
    • Tithing
    • Abortion and family planning
    • LGBT issues
  • Priesthood
    • Lay clergy
    • Requirements for admission to the priesthood
      • Worthiness requirement
      • Exclusion of women
    • Priesthood hierarchy
      • Continuous revelation
      • Lines of authority
      • Sustaining of leaders
      • Obedience to leaders

COGDEN 08:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You brought up one I forgot about: the Church's position on abortion. I have seen protesters and websites complaining about the Church's position on abortion, so perhaps it deserves a small place in the article as well. --Lethargy 22:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The outline looks like a good synopsis. I would recommend changing the wording to be less full of LDS jargon, specifically I would change the Metaphysics section to be:
    • Nature of God
    • Nature of man
    • Purpose of life
or something similar. For example, under Purpose of life, you would discuss the plan of salvation (including the pre-exisitance), with a see also header to those articles. Bytebear 23:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

keep the title. the way it is. the church of jesuschrist of the latter days saints. if we change the name we will limited the information. but if you keep the way it is, is allow to put more information about the church and it is easy to search under their name instead guessing which one is the title. chao

I like that outline. Shall I get started on a reorganization? -uriah923(talk) 22:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The unique and defining doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that Joseph Smith, Jr. and his successors received and continue to receive binding revelation from God in the same way that Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Peter and other biblical prophets did. All other doctrines, especially the more interesting ones are a byproduct of this. The current content says very little about JS, I think that the beliefs and practices section should lead with this.

How about this outline?

  • The Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.
    • First Vision
    • other defining revelations thru JS? WoW? Keys restored at Kirtland temple? New and Everlasting covenant? Baptism for the dead? There were some recent conference talks that hit on JS major contributions, probably need to review those.
  • Metaphysics
    • Nature of God
    • Nature of Man (Preexistence, potential)
    • Purpose of Life (Plan of salvation)
    • Resurrection, body, and spirit
  • Priesthood
    • Lay clergy
    • Requirements for admission to the priesthood
      • Worthiness requirement
      • Exclusion of women
    • Priesthood hierarchy
      • Continuous Revelation
        • Savior’s visit to the spirits of the dead
        • The Family: a Proclamation to the World
      • Lines of authority
      • Sustaining of leaders
      • Obedience to leaders
  • Eschatology
    • Millenium
    • Kingdom of God
    • Survivalism/year's supply
  • Theology of gender and family
    • Eternal families
    • Gender roles
    • Polygamy
  • Ordinances
    • Open ordinances
    • Temple ordinances
    • Ordinances for the dead
  • Participation outside of worship
    • Missionary work
    • Family history
    • Church callings
    • Home teaching/visiting teaching
    • Family home evenings
  • Lifestyle code
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Chastity, modesty
    • Tithing
    • Abortion and family planning
    • LGBT issues

Key changes from outline above are addition of JS, movement of priesthood section right after metaphysics, addition of a two examples of continuous revelation. Ideally, each bullet point would have a reference to LDS scripture and / or a recent conference talk. BTW, does anyone know how to link directly to conference talks on LDS.org, is that even allowed? Also, what is "LGPT issues"? 74s181 12:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 12:49, 2 January 2007.

LGBT stands for "Lesbian, Gay, Bi-Sexual, and Trans-gender" wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 16:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the Joseph Smith section should be covered in a brief history section. WoW is covered in Lifestyle, Keys of Priesthood and polygamy in history. Baptism for the Dead in Temples. There are so many LDS offshoot articles, that this article should be a very general overview, so I would avoid putting a lot of detail here. If the details can be elaborated in other articles, use those. A full section on Smith seems excessive (despite his importance). Many historians see Brigham Young as being just as important if not more so to the modern church, and he is barely mentioned. Bytebear 19:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Joseph Smith, Jr. is part of the history of the church but his divine calling as the prophet of the restoration is also a key doctrine, you can't be LDS without believing this. It is a question in both the baptism and temple recommend interviews. I added some references and reworded an existing paragraph to add the section on Joseph Smith, Jr. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Opening paragraph

I beg you, Trödel, please don't make us go through the same discussion that you can read on this page. We had an agreement, there is no reason to change the text to a more controversial solution. --Martin C. 17:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is you who introduced the non-neutral language, I merely restored the neutral version after your edit. All objective measures include CJC under the "Christianity" label - polls of religious identity, governmental statistics, books on religions, etc. --Trödel 17:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that is simply untrue. The LDS church is considered non-Christian by an overwhelming majority of Christian churches, you cannot just say their opinion doesn't matter. Polls of religious identity? Of course every LDS member thinks the church is Christian, but why should only their opinion matter? Govermental statistics? Which goverment, what statistics? Books on religions - which books? You cannot say that every book on religion classifies the LDS church as Christian. Definition of NPOV: don't give predominance to either view, simply say who thinks what. That's exactly what I did. --Martin C. 17:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Adding: please read the conversation on this very page, including yourself and others who didn't object to (and some actually praised) the solution back then. Simply changing the text to something not agreed upon when nobody's watching and then calling it "a stable situation" is quite absurd. You cannot say "LDS church is Christian" is neutral while "LDS members view the church as Christian" is not. You stated that the "claim of non-Christianity" (that is, the majority opinion) is already dealt in the article - which means that the opening paragraph says that this view is wrong. That's not NPOV. --Martin C. 17:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
One last point: it seems that when you said the situation "has been stable for some time", that meant exactly 12 days - after an anonymous edit. --Martin C. 18:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
If I did, I was wrong see #COTM proposal for my support that this article should be overhauled. --Trödel 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
If you have anything to answer, please do it here on the talk page and refrain from reverting. I can make my point once more, this time really clearly: We cannot make the article say X if X is highly controversial, even if we personally agree with X. We can only tell that group P believes X and group Q believes non-X. We cannot make the encyclopedia side with either party. --Martin C. 18:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
If you opine that "members believe that..." is not encyclopedic tone, then make it better - "the church teaches that...." or "the official LDS doctrine is that..." or whatever, but whatever you do, don't make the text present the LDS opinion as a fact. That's simply not neutral. Actually, I can do it for you. --Martin C. 18:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
But in this case X is not highly controversial. But only controversial amongst a certain group of people. Furthermore it is not a widely held schalarly position. --Trödel 19:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
That's like saying that, say, the role of the pope as the God-ordained successor of Peter is "only controversial amongst a certain group of people" - that is, amongst all Christians except Catholics (and in that case, the certain group comprises less than half of self-described Christendom; in this case, some 95 %). You are also incorrect in stating that considering non-trinitarians non-Christians is "not a widely held schalarly [sic] position" - in fact, it is the dominating stance among theologians in the world we live in. You see, we cannot exclude confessional stances from affecting the encyclopedic formulation only when they disagree with us - the LDS stance is just as confessional as the trinitarian. --Martin C. 19:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Martin C. I changed a paragraph in the Trinity section because the corresponding reference didn't fit. It read "An opinion held by the Catholic church, Orthodox church, and most Protestant churches...." and I changed it to "An opinion held by many Christian denominations..." The reference does not state the official position of the Catholic or Orthodox church. If we want it to read the other way, there needs to be an appropriate reference, preferrably an official statement by the Catholic and/or Orthodox church. Sylverdin 19:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Sylverdin. I'll get back to this. --Martin C. 19:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sylverdin, why is "most" a weasel word in your view? --Martin C. 21:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It's listed under Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words#Examples. --Masamage 21:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Alongside with many, which is a synonym for the suggested much in this case. But most is more precise in this case than much - and it's even verifiable (Catholics alone comprise more than 50 % of Christians, add Orthodoxy and mainstream Protestantism to that). --Martin C. 22:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV issue aside, there is an accuracy issue here. The official position of various Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Episcopal groups that have actually taken a position on this subject (most churches have no official position) is that Mormonism is not part of the historical, apostolic tradition of Christianity. I don't personally know of any mainstream Christian church out there that has officially taken the more extreme position that Mormonism is not any form of Christianity. COGDEN 19:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Rather than explain here, I attempted a rewrite of the first two paragraphs that I hope will be more accurately and neutrally. I urge comments here rather than continued reversion as I changed it in a way, I hope, that would avoid this issue. --Trödel 20:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with the current revision, thank you. (I don't quite see why you were unhappy with my version, though; in my view, "view" is more neutral than "claim", so actually the current revision seems to be less favourable to Mormons than the previous one was.) --Martin C. 20:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Martin C. I looked at the references you have for the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church's stands on Mormons not being Christian. The reference for the catholic church only states that the baptisms are invalid, not that the LDS church isn't Christian. Therefore it shouldn't be used as a reference in this case. The Orthodox reference is the same, validity of baptism being the issue. In addition, it does not even mention the LDS church. Neither reference states that the respective church sees Mormons as non christians. Therefore, I still don't think that the references are adequate to justify what you have stated as fact. I'm not disuputing it as a fact, just urging you to find better fitting references before making changes. If references can't be found, I suggest leaving out the section. Sylverdin 22:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sylverdin, we are talking about churches with a very strict view about what makes you a Christian: a valid baptism. Do I have to underline that in the article? -Martin C. 22:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It might be good to do that, yes. On the other hand, maybe we're beating this to death. I would suggest wait and see what other users suggest before changing anything. I'm only one user and haven't worked on this article alot, so I'm not up to speed on what is being done to make it better. I'd wait for more input from other users who are far more knowledgeable than I; I'm sure it would help to come to a common concensus. Sylverdin 22:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'll just reformulate what's already in the section; actually the underlining was part of my original idea, but I kind of failed to formulate it properly. Let's then wait and see (which is BTW a very good advice, thank you). --Martin C. 22:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


Most Christians say other Christians are not "real" Christains. Only the Catholics are Christian to Catholics, same with Prodistants. I would argue that Mormons are more Christian, as they accept other Christian views as Christian, even if they go against their teachings.

[edit] Removing paragraph

I know I am risking making some people very unhappy - but the more I think about it the more I wonder - why do we even need to include this at all in the article - We should be tryign to explain what the church is and what it believes. There are other articles that compare the beliefs to other religions --Trödel 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That's very true, come to think of it. If "Christian" is a word that means so many different things to different people, it's only complicating things unnecessarily to use it, and we should leave it out entirely. --Masamage 23:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I do believe that the article should at least mention and link to other articles that deal with the controversies. But I agree that the headline "Nature of God" wasn't the best place to deal with this one. Certainly leaving it out is better than the very weasel-worded "some Christians believe..." that it used to have. --Martin C. 23:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I like your edit. Looks good. --Masamage 00:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. There is a link to Mormonism and Christianity under the Growth into an international church section. Sylverdin 23:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure I agree that this needs to be said in the Nature of God section. In the different catholicism articles I have read they mostly just articulate the belief of the group - and then have a section on how they broke apart with other catholic traditions. I think we should do the same here - will copyedit the recent change - but still think it is completely unnecessary. --Trödel 03:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Much vs. most considering the LDS church as non-Christian

Please. When I cite my sources and give reasons for what I write, I'm get told that this is not the place for such an extensive explanation. When I don't, my text gets reverted because it's unverified and POV. Please decide which solution you want; you cannot keep a factually incorrect clause ("Much of Christianity views Mormonism...", should be "most") in the article. --Martin C. 17:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Martin C. is correct. Most Christians do think Mormons are non-Christian, or a heretical sect. When a denomination like Roman Catholicism says that their baptism is invalid, and they also believe that baptism is the rite of entry into the Church (meaning Christianity in the broadest sense that Roman Catholicism understands it), that is enough to conclude that it thinks Mormons are not Christian. As an aside, I don't know why Mormons seek to claim legitimacy or approval from the ones they consider apostates. But regarding recent edits, Martin did provide full sources, which were removed, and then even the basic claim was reverted for lack of sources. We need to do better than this. Wesley 17:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that this article isn't about what other people think of the church. This is a controversy that should be handled on other pages and mentioned in the controversy section. --Trödel 19:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The first cite only indicated that the Catholic church doesn't recognize Mormon baptisms, nothing more. It certainly doesn't support the claim of "most Christians..." which constitutes original research. The second cite provided is an orthodox wiki which can hardly be treated as a reliable source. Even if cites are provided which would fully support the assertion that most other religions don't recognize Mormon baptisms and don't regard Mormons as Christians, the Mormons certainly regard themselves as Christians, so other views are only relevant in a "Other Views of Mormonism" section or possibly in a "Criticism" section, definitely not in a section about the church's international growth. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It sounds like we should just keep the "Mormons see themselves as Christians" phrasing and move all discussion of what others think into the Controversy section. There it'll actually be relevant. --Masamage 19:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
If I might chime in, "Much of Christianity views Mormonism as...." is not gramatically correct, it should be "most", followed by "Christians"; a religion itself cannot view anything as it doesn't have physical eyes, only the adherants can see. Homestarmy 19:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL, good point. I think the phrase "Some Christians view..." might work well. It makes no attempt to quantify numbers that probably can't be verified anyway. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 19:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried just removing any quantifiable hint in the phrase - since we aren't ever going to find a sample/poll of all Christians which would give us an accurate number. Still don't like the phrasing though, so have at it. WBardwin 19:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
"Some definitions of the word 'Christian' include Mormonism, while others do not"? --Masamage 19:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the much-edited text with the phrase "...some Christians view...". This seems to be accurate and grammatically correct. Given that we provide a link to Mormonism and Christianity, it seems sufficient.

Another risky edit - I just reworded this entire section to make it more neutral and avoid the issue being debated. --Trödel 20:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Heh. I was reluctant to alter that much of the text myslef, but your boldness paid off. I would support Trödel's current version as the most neutral and concise phrasing yet. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 20:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong with the current version - it's more neutral than what it used to be. As Doc Tropics said, the opinion about Mormons being non-Christian would properly belong to an "Other views of Mormonism" section, which would have "See also: Criticism of Mormonism, Mormonism and Christianity" at the beginning. Let me add: it is very risky to consistently exclude any text that states what the documented opinion of churches (representing a majority of Christians) is. --Martin C. 08:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thx for the kind comments - I was bracing for "you suck" type stuff :) --Trödel 17:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course not, we're here for teamwork and not for competition or antagonism. Non-information is better than information that is very easily perceived in an incorrect way. I'll get back to this matter, but seeing how long the article already is, I expect a major cleanup in the future anyway. --Martin C. 22:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I realize things have calmed down recently, but I'm sure it will come up again. How about the definition of Christian that Jesus Christ gave in John 13:34-35?

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

As a LDS, I love Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. One on one I am usually able to find common ground with any of the above. I suspect that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. view LDS as Christians, but I agree that given the strong feelings on the matter some sort of distinction needs to be made. The defining issue is the Nicene creed. LDS are often called 'Mormons', personally I think the labels 'Mormon Christians' and 'Nicene Christians' work, but Nicene Christians don't like to have their Christianity qualified in that way. Well, for that matter, neither do I, but I can live with it. 74s181 11:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


If you are truly looking for a NPOV of what it means to be Christian, then please use the dictionary's definition of a Christian, rather than what other religions consider to be Christian. From dictionary.com we find the definition as being:

Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith. 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country. 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades. 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity. 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial. 6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian. –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. 8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian. 9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren. 10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. 11. a male given name.

Obviously definitions 10 and 11 can be excluded when considering whether a religion is considered "Christian" or not. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, have a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, try to live Christlike lives, are generally decent and respectable, humane people, who believe in Jesus Christ, and tries to live their lives according the the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way I read it, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Christians.Web Woman 18:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Apostle/witness issue

I've just seen the whole issue about apostles being "spiritual witnesses" and "witnesses of the Living Christ" and have to agree with Trodel. It does seem a bit POV and "Mormon" to include an additional description of the office. If a casual reader wishes to know more about the office, he/she will click on the link. I would definitely support a removal of that phrase from the article. Pahoran513 23:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Just added the "spiritual witnesses" as an alternative phrase, but have no real preference. Most readers probably won't think about Apostle as an office or function, as they are understood in the LDS church, however. WBardwin 03:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is still the appropriate term though. Witnesses of Christ is better, but POV. I'll try to think of another term. Pahoran513 03:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LDS church involvement in editing?

This poster User talk:216.49.181.128 is (apparantly) posting from an official LDS location; if someone from the INTELLECTUAL RESERVE INC. is indeed editing then we must surmise that this is definite LDS POV. Where do we go from here? POV is not allowed under Wikipedia policy, no matter who is presenting it. I have a screenshot of the whois report if anyone wants me to post it here. Duke53 | Talk 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The "NPOV" policy does not mean that "POV is not allowed". It's impossible to have no point of view, unless one's mind is void of all thought. Points of view that are properly attributed can be included. In this case, as long as it's made clear when we're dealing with an official LDS position it's ok. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It is POV when the editor is deleting (without comment) anything that the LDS church does not want on these pages. Check the editing history of that editor and let me know what you believe they are attempting to do. It is pretty obvious to me. Duke53 | Talk 02:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't disagreeing with that. I was just pointing out (a) the phrase "POV is not allowed" is incorrect, and (b) that presenting a church POV as a church POV is perfectly cool. I'm not challenging your conclusions about this editor. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, maybe it is a POV vandal from the LDS church (I just looked at the edit history and agree with you), but we can't know if it is from a directive from the Church. It may just be a random employee doing the editing, the same as if he removed the content at home. However I'm not sure that this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. And how do you know it is from an LDS IP address? I'm honestly curious, not criticizing in the least. Let's not make an issue out of this--let's treat the IP the same as a regular user who makes the same edits. Pahoran513 03:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

See whois report --Trödel 14:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm comfortable that that was a well-meaning but unofficial church member. As for "Where do we go from here?" the answer is simple: just revert it every time it happens. No big deal. --Masamage 03:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"just revert it every time it happens" We could also ask for a block of that address, which is done every day at Wikipedia. Their position does not make them any better than anybody else at Wikipedia. Duke53 | Talk 04:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"And how do you know it is from an LDS IP address"? > > >
Opps - guess you already have shown the IP address - but is the arrow really needed - this kind of condenscension - rather than just providing a link to a whois search from your prefered provider is what permeates all your discussions on LDS topics and is getting rather tiresome. --Trödel 14:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe a BIGGER arrow was needed, since you 'missed' seeing it before you went to the trouble of posting a duplicate. I am getting pretty sick of your 'criticisms' ... you worry about your posts, I'll worry about mine. Duke53 | Talk 14:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
How am I supposed to miss something that wasn't there, see the diff that I ws reviewing. Perhaps if you went to the trouble to learn more about how Wikipedia works and the traditions here instead of using them as a sledghammer to get your way (e.g. posting warnings to user talk pages over content disputes, unnessarily requesting page/image protection, requesting mediation anytime you can't find a way to compromise [and not having any editor willing to mediate is telling], not trying to learn how diffs work[even after I tried to carefully explain them to you]) - my remarks regarding those traditions wouldn't rub you the wrong way. --Trödel 15:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"See whois report --Trödel 14:27, 22 November 2006" The image was there when you posted your link (hint:check time stamps); not my fault if you 'were' editing from an older 'diff'. I know how Wikipedia works in this case ... should you know the same? Duke53 | Talk 19:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed that I should have checked to see if someone had provided a link already (but wait - now that I have looked at it - it isn't a link but an image that is unverifiable - no link to the source of the image either here or on the image's page). However, I should have resisted any comment about your motives. --Trödel 19:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Blocks are only given if the individual persists after being warned. They have been warned; they have not persisted. Again, nothing to worry about. --Masamage 04:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I realize that they haven't persisted after the warnings, but you said "just revert it every time it happens", as if we were to continue just reverting them. 11 edits (most of which were simply deleting content) in just over half an hour should be pretty close to the limit for patience for anyone. Duke53 | Talk 04:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I see your point. Yes, if they get back on it they should be warned maybe once more and then submitted for a block. 11 edits is pushing it, but if their momentum was really up, they may just not have seen our warnings until they finished; I try to give the benefit of a doubt. In any case, let's hope they're finished. --Masamage 05:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eschatology

one thing i'm a little confused about. isn't the new Jerusalem supplsed to be located within jackson county? the article seems to imply that they are in 2 seperate locations. Javawizard 23:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that there will be Jerusalem and new Jerusalem. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Women and the Priesthood

I'm not convinced that women were given the priesthood. I'm more inclined to believe they thought they could exercise some priesthood power. I'm away on a business trip and won't be home until this weekend, but I recall reading in a book containing various writings of Mormon women, including one passage where an early prominent women (Eliza Snow maybe?) felt she was able to exercise the priesthood through the temple ordinances. I will look when I get home to come up with the reference, unless somebody beats me to it. I also recall hearing that women frequently were set apart to perform blessings, but I'm not sure I ever found a source to confirm that. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

- Women are given the Priesthood to do temple work only. It is not the same Priesthood given to the men. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.32.68.211 (talk • contribs).

Generally it is the same priesthood D&C 107:1-5. It is an appendage to the Melch Priesthood just like any office in the priesthood like Bishop, EQ Pres, etc; however I know of no reliable source for doctrine that descibes how the priesthood operates in the temple for Women (i.e. by what way do they administer in ordinances). --Trödel 17:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
When recently asked, "Will there ever be women priests in the Mormon church"? Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the church, said in The Boston Globe: "Insofar as I can see, no. The women have their place.... they have a voice in determining policy and doing many things in the church. I haven't found any complaint among our women. I'm sure there are a few, a handful somewhere who may be disaffected for one reason or another, but I've never seen any evidence of it."[1] Duke53 | Talk 18:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
and...--Trödel 18:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
and ... what ? Duke53 | Talk 20:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

To Bill and anon - Married women hold the priesthood jointly with their husbands; ie endowed women hold priesthood (or are annointed and in some cases ordained as priestesses), but they are not ordained, nor hold keys nor have authorization to act in directing church affairs as part of the priesthood. However, up until the middle of last century, women were allowed to stand in on baby blessings, pray over the sick, place anointed oil on the sick (but not perform the anointing ordinance) and more. I think President Hinckley's quote is good and accurate - those who understand the workings of the priesthood and church doctrine don't have an issue with it (and statistics I've seen support this, per discussions elsewhere. Roles are different, and they do hold eternal priesthood, yet they are not active as priesthood leaders in this life. The doctrines are clear, and no man can be exalted without his spouse's priesthood. The priesthood was not perfectly orgazined until the women portions were via the relief societty, according ot SMith. Women have to have a role in priesthood, however, most outside the church and many within the church don't take time to read the basic teachings on this in such works as Priesthood and church Government and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and as such misunderstand it. However, the quote is supported by stats on the matter. -Visorstuff 21:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the whole "women and the priesthood" section should be removed. It is too "fringe" and not indicative of the history nor the teachings of the churchIsaac Crumm 04:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should this be removed?

At the end of the "Worship Services" section is this:

Women usually attend wearing a bikini or other revealing swimsuit, while men wear slacks with or without a shirt. Children are also expected to come to church meetings wearing casual clothing.

It seems "out of place" (?) and probably incorrect. Someone with editing experience might want to correct it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.147.129.196 (talk • contribs) 13:14, December 14, 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that in the article. It only talks about normal church-clothes. Guess someone already fixed it. --Masamage 08:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget one of the main rules of wikipedia. Fix whatever seems totally incorrect and be bold. Telepheedian 17:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies section

I realize it is by-and-large a hopeless cause for this article to be anything other than what the mob-rule of LDS folk wants it to be, but don't you think it is a little ridiculous to have nothing but Wikilinks in the controversies section? CyberAnth 18:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

This was done with a lot of discussion, and primarily because if we introduce even a paragraph, it soon becomes bloated and added with every arguement and counter arguement under the sun. It's just too much information to have here, and adding even one point opens the flood gates. Certainly we can discuss again, but please review the archives. Bytebear 19:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
"Too much" according to who? When there are as many controversies as there is, one would expect the section to at least include a bulleted list of the major ones. But then, that is not "faith promoting", is it, which is the core argument beneath the euphemisms in the arguments for exclusion, right? And adding counter arguments is not even the purpose of "criticisms" section, is it? CyberAnth 19:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
It used to be a big section, but the decision was made to simplify as the section became so large as to warrant its own article. At the same time the article was spun out, there was a wikipedia movement to cut down on duplicate material from article to article, and in most cases entire sections of articles were relegated to a single link - as has survived in this article. That's the context, it wasn't purposeful to censor any criticism. I agree we should add it back in, however, I'd still keep the links so folks can read the larger articles on the various topics.
As a side note and comparison, Exmormon editors relegated any discussion of Mormon/Latter-day Saint views at the Exmormon article to an doctrirally and historically incorrect [paragraphs]. Mormon editors who tried to correct were told that in an article about Exmormons, Mormons shouldn't have a say as to certain aspects of content that are positive toward the church. I disagree with this view in any article - and think that controversies and criticisms is a natural part of any article. Cyberanth, add it in, as it probably should be there...or at least a bit of explanations as to why we are pointing people to other articles.... -Visorstuff 20:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I do disagree with a bulleted list - as this article is in much better status and I believe that bulleted lists in most cases decreases an article's readability. And it would simply duplicate an already long Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. Context is always better than lists. And I do agree that rebuttals from Mormon apologists are not wise, but the wording should reflect the differences between disagreements and misunderstandings. -Visorstuff 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I will note that there is a consensus on some articles that "Controversies/Criticisms" should not be their own heading and woven into the article. I think some felt that a "See Also" was not prominant enough for the links so the heading stands, and the compromise was met. Bytebear 20:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A date in history

I was looking back at some old edits and thought you'd all be interested to read an early, early version of this article. Very interesting how far we've come. -Visorstuff 00:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Being concise

I just made a bunch of changes in an effort to get this article to a more managable size - and removed only 4kb from 75kb to 71kb. I think further efforts need to be made in this area even if it means more summarization and the creation of additional articles. --Trödel 23:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The culture section could be condensed a lot with a brief mention of the various programs of the church. Also the Education section duplicates some info on Institute which could be condensed as well. Bytebear 07:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the word "metaphysics" ought to be replaced with something else, actually it should probably just be removed altogether, it doesn't really fit very well.Isaac Crumm 04:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. There are only two subsection under it which could easily go under Beiefs with no problem. Bytebear 04:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrdom of Joseph Smith is not POV

An anonymous user (170.74.0.1) changed "Joseph Smith led the church until he was killed in 1844" to "Joseph Smith led the church until he was martyred in 1844". He also 'signed' the begining of the article.

Wrp103 reverted the change, with the comment "rv - bad POV edit". I agree that signing the article was a mistake, but I had also been considering changing "killed" to "martyred", I think it is appropriate.

The word "martyred" is not POV by any definition I can find. http://www.answers.com/topic/martyr says "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle." Wikipedia says: "In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions." Joseph Smith made the ultimate sacrifice to seal his testimony.

So I changed it back to martyred and added a reference to D&C 135. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 02:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

You added a reference that is not of a neutral point of view. Besselfunctions 02:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, not a great reference, but an acceptable word according to the dictionary definitions quoted. --Masamage 02:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The reference to D&C 135 uses the term "martyrdom" but I didn't add it to prove that Joseph Smith was a martyr. The intent is to provide an eyewitness account of the event, the majority of statements in the reference are facts about the event which I don't believe are disputed by anyone (who, what, where, when, how, why). Sprinkled among these undisputed facts are some pretty strong opinions about Joseph Smith, but D&C 135 is not Wikipedia, it is a reference being cited in Wikipedia. As with any reference, the reader will have to decide for himself what he thinks about it.74s181 11:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope I have come up with a workable compromise. I changed the term back to "killed", and then mention that members consider him martyred in the footnote. I notice that the same changes have been made for several other pages (a number of times for some pages). What do people think? Can we settle on that approach? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 15:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I think you are using "killed" in order to avoid POV arguments with other editors. But by definition (as shown above) Smith was a martyr. With that said, it is actually POV to say "Mormons claim Smith was Martyred". Keep that in mind when compromising. Bytebear 18:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Folks there are multiple issues here. Words and phrases used to describe his death could include: Killed, Murdered, Martyred, Died in a gunfight, Assassinated, Died in a revenge killing, Manslaughtered, Lynched by a mob, Causualty of a riot, Died in armed conflict with a militia and more. Wikipedia assigns POV to many of these terms.

"Killed" is what is the most neutral - the fact is that he was killed. "Murdered" is appropriate, as there was a murder trial. Assasinated is appropriate, as he was a presidential candidate. "Martyr" could be debated as he fought back, and we don't know all of the reasons for the killing. Was it political due to his presidency bid? (he is listed in some books as the first presidential candidate in the US that was "assasinated") was it over slavery? Polygamy? Religion? Revenge? Mobocracy due to power struggles, militial tribunals, destruction of press, mayoral policies, church organization, secrecy, changes to masonic ritual, and the legality of killing mormons in missouri and more have all been cited as reasons why people hated him and would want to kill him. So to say he was only martyred is a mistake, as he was also assasinated, murdered, tortured and nearly beheaded. Let's let Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. sort out those issues, and keep it simple in this article. It should read kill here and perhaps a link to the sub-article explaining these arguments. Lets just keep it simple, as his death can become quite complex depending on the readers point of view. -Visorstuff 19:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that discussion of alternate viewpoints should remain on the Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. page, but I think this article should use the word "martyred" because that is the most accurate and concise description of what happened. "Killed" may be less offensive to some people, but "martyred" is more accurate. One may be killed by being gored by an ox, run over by a wagon, shot for cheating at cards, etc. Joseph Smith was killed for his religious beliefs, therefore he was martyred. Assassinated is less accurate, although he was a politician for a short time, most people are not even aware that he was a US presidential candidate. His entire life revolved around his role as founder and leader of the Mormon church.
Visorstuff said: "...'Martyr' could be debated as he fought back..." Well, Joseph Smith went to Carthage voluntarily, "...like a lamb to the slaughter..." but he did fire a few shots with a pepper-box revolver after attackers started firing into the jail. However, there is nothing in the dictionary definition of 'martyr' that says a martyr has to meekly accept his fate. In fact, the Wikipedia martyr article includes those who voluntarily surrender their lives actively attacking others in the name of a religous cause.
Visorstuff said: "...'Killed' is what is the most neutral..." I disagree. "Died" would be the most neutral, but it isn't accurate. We could say: "Joseph Smith led the church until his death in 1844." This is factually correct, but doesn't convey as much information as "killed", which doesn't convey as much information as "martyred". We could also say "...until he died in prison in 1844..." Not exactly correct. "...until he was shot while attempting to escape from prison in 1844..." Whoa, completely factual but also completely wrong. How about "...until he was killed by an armed group who disagreed with his religious teachings..." Accurate, but kind of long, might still be offensive, and by the way, isn't that what 'martyred' means? "...until his death in 1844..." would be definitely be less offensive to some "historic" Christians. Is that the goal? To sacrifice brevity or accuracy in order to avoid offense?
Bytebear seems to be suggesting that maybe the concern is that martyr is a loaded word and if it is used here it will attract all sorts of trouble.
Bottom line, if Joseph Smith doesn't fit the definition of martyr, who does? And if he was a martyr, why can't we say so? 74s181 04:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I do think it will attract those who will claim it is POV, but those same people will claim that calling Mormons "Christian" is POV, so I don't give it as much weight as you may thing. I do think we need to be clear as to the usage and that it is valid to say "martyr" and leave little or no room to argue the contrary. I did say that it is definitly POV to say that Mormons claim he was martyred as it isn't just mormons. at the very least the footnot should say "Smith was martyred" stated as a fact. Bytebear 07:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I have changed it back to 'martyred'. I made a similar change to the Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. page and added a section for opposing viewpoints. 'Classification of Joseph Smith, Jr. as a martyr'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 14 January 2007.

I'm not sure why, but Bytebear changed GutenMorning's "death" edit back to "martyrdom", then changed it again to "death" two hours later. There are two sentences right next to each other that could use a form of 'martyr':

"In 1844, after a conflict with an antagonistic newspaper over Smith's alleged practice of "spiritual wifery", Smith and his brother Hyrum were arrested, taken to Carthage, Illinois, and then both of them were killed by a mob on June 27, 1844.
In the aftermath of the death of Joseph Smith Jr. and his brother Hyrum, his presumed successor,[4] several church leaders campaigned to lead the church, a time known as the Succession Crisis."

Saying "...both of them were martyred by a mob..." doesn't sound right to me, unfortunately my last class in english composition was 30+ years in the past and I wasn't paying much attention.

Using a form of 'martyr' in the second sentence as in "..aftermath of the martyrdom..." sounds better than "...martyred by a mob..." in the first sentence but still seems a bit clumsy.

I think one of these needs to use the more descriptive "martyr" terminology, it is more accurate and I think we agreed it was NPOV.74s181 13:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Native American's and Israelites

a recent edit added several paragraphs on the origins of Native Americans. It does seem like a worthy belief to mention, but his edits are extremely POV and somewhat inaccurate. Can someone come up with something more neutral (and shorter) as it really belongs either in Controversies article, or in the Book of Mormon article. Bytebear 07:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree it it too long for this page, and doesn't belong at the begining of the beliefs section, this is not a core belief. I rearranged the intro a bit, created a couple of new sections and moved this material to those sections until someone who has the time can check other LDSproject pages for duplicate material and reorganize / summarize these sections. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC).
I was wondering if I could change something. The section says "...Not only is this view not based on archaeological research (it is rooted in speculation about the origins of Native Americans current in the early 19th Century), DNA testing proves that the two groups are not related..." I wanted to change it to: "This view not based on archaeological research, instead coming from the text of the Book of Mormon (which, if written by Joseph Smith, could have its roots in speculation about the origins of Native Americans current in the early 19th Century). DNA testing proves that the two groups are not related..." The way it is currently written, it doesn't allow for the possibility of the Book of Mormon being anything but fiction. The way I have it written allows for the possibility of it being true in as non POV a way I can think of. Just wanted to ask before doing, as this seems to be a touchy page, and I don't want to get banned, seeing as though (I think) I share an IP adress with everybody in my dorm complex. 128.187.0.178 04:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you will get banned for reducing POV, best thing to do is to register as a user, that separates your identity from your IP address, if people don't like something you do then they can leave feedback on your talk page.
This whole section along with the text following 'America as Promised Land' was inserted at the top of the 'Beliefs and practices' section a couple of days ago by an anonymous editor. It was moved to the end of the section, split up, edited, etc. I agree that the controversy is better covered in the Genetics and the Book of Mormon, I didn't know that article existed before today.
So I'm removing most of the text and replacing it with a statement that there is a controversy, linked to the genetics article. Since the main topic of Mormon belief about native americans is more of a Book of Mormon topic, I've changed the main article link to point to the Book of Mormon.74s181 12:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Growth in size of the article and Lingo

Unfortunately the size of the article is going in the opposite direction it needs to. The article has grown 6% since January 4th when I last attempted to consolidate items and move details to sub articles. Additionally, the introduction is full of CJC lingo and no longer reads neutrally (imho). Finally, Joseph Smith has replaced Smith contrary to the style guide. --Trödel 03:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like you are saying that first usage of a proper name should be the full name and subsequent usage should be a shorter form. I think this makes sense but I couldn't find any statements supporting this in the link you provided. I followed the link to the style guide, eventually found the Wikipedia:Proper names link, followed it. There is a section on Personal names, it says "...it is best to use a recognizable form for an article title... The most complete name (with titles) should appear at the beginning of the article..." but it doesn't say that a shorter version of the name should be used within the article.
I see two problems contributing to the size of the article.
1. There are some fairly lengthy sections that do not have a 'see also' or 'main' tag, referencing another article with more detail. (Ordinances, Non-canonical publications, Temple worship, first three sections under Church organization and leadership)
2. Some sections that do reference another article with more detail have too much detail. (Early history, Establishment in Utah, Purpose of Life, Theology of family and gender, Priesthood, Worship services, General Conference, Church Educational System)
I think #1 can be dealt with by creating stub articles. The problem with #2 is NPOV. One wants to say something about the subject, but as soon as you do, the 'anti' folks want to have their say, and it escalates from there. I'm not sure how to prevent that without offending. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 16:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Sorry for pointing to the wrong page, it is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Subsequent uses of names. I agree with both these suggestions. One can introduce complex topics concisely and still be neutral. The key is that one should accurately describe the church and its teachings without commenting on whether they are right or wrong. This edit attempts to do just that in explaining the Plan of Salvation. Here is another example on the politically charged family/same-sex marriage issue. Sorry to use my own edits but I know them best :) --Trödel 02:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mountain Meadows Massacre

Why is it that references to a highly documented event in the history of the early mormon church in Utah is continually removed from the article? If there is to be a section about the History of the church, and this article is to be unbiased rather than the evangelical tool of the Mormon church, as it appears to be, then the entire history MUST be presented, NOT just the good, but the bad as well. This bears fully on the history of the church, and should not be removed.Mountain Meadows Massacre. I am not suggesting the entire story be rehashed but a brief sentence ought to be in the article with a link to the well verified and supported wiki entry on the subject.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.55.80.32 (talk • contribs).

I'm pretty sure no one disagrees. Your link is badly formatted, but that's the only problem I see. --Masamage 16:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, looks like someone does, and they have a good reason. It is a really long article already. --Masamage 18:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

See discussion immediately above this one. There is no room in this article for detail on any topic, positive or negative, history included. Most sections give a very high level overview and refer to another article. That is why there is a separate History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article, which does mention the Mountain Meadows massacre. The goal right now is to move material from this article to other articles, not to add more info to this article. Only the most significant, high-level events or info should be in this article.

Although the Mountain Meadows massacre (which, as you can see, has its own article) was a horrible attrocity, it was an act of individuals, not an official act of the Church, at least there doesn't appear to be any evidence that it was ordered or condoned by Brigham Young or any other senior church official. Compare this to the Mormon War which was an official act against the church by various government officials, up to and including Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs. Many of the Mormon War attrocities and their connection to government officials are well documented in various eye witness accounts in documents that still exist today, along with the original Extermination Order signed by the governor himself. This long string of events only gets half of a sentence in this article. 74s181 05:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I should point out that according to Will Bagley, who wrote the book "Blood of Prohets: The Mountain Meadow Massacre", he presents evidence that Brigham Young did in fact give the "kill orders" for the Fauncher Party massacre. He also provides clear evidence that Mormons participated in the massacre, for which only John D. Lee was held resposible and executed. He draws from a recovered Mormon diary, that Fawn Brodie (the current expert on the massacre, and LDS member) did not have or know about when she wrote her book. 69.10.215.75 20:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Dude, check your facts. Fawn Brodie is not "the current expert on the massacre"; she has been dead for 26 years. Moreover, she was anything but an "LDS member" most of her adult life.--204.126.173.139 20:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by GutenMorning

A new user, GutenMorning made a number of edits, most of which were reverted. None of the edits had an edit summary. One of the edits was a section from Church History about the death of Joseph Smith. The edit summary of the revert called it "obviously vandalism", but I disagree.

I agree that the addition probably should not have been added as part of the article, but could have very easily gone into a footnote. I realize that this page gets vandalized on a regular basis, and I'm as guilty as the next one at summarily reverting edits. But (IMHO) we should also remember to take it easy on the new editors. We were all newbies at some point. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blacks and Mormonism

A recent edit by 84.146.236.121 was reverted on the grounds of POV push:

The Book of Mormon never actually countenanced any form of curse-based discrimination. It stated that the Lord "denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile". (2 Nephi 26:33). In fact, prejudice against people of dark skin was condemned:

O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness..." (Jacob 3:8-9).

Although there is some POV, it balances out an equally (IMHO) POV edit that talks about the Nephite/Lamanite skin color in the Book of Mormon, which is off-topic, since the section is really about African-Americans not getting the priesthood for a while.

It seems to me that we should either add this back in w/o the POV comments, or remove the off-topic paragraphs about skin color in the Book of Mormon.

Thoughts? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 18:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above. Note that the Blacks and Mormonism article gives all of the same details. The intrinsic symbolism of "white" as a symbol of purity and being washed "white through the blood of the Lamb" can't be adequately explained in a brief summary article such as this, so why mislead and confuse the reader? Reiddp 07:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Criticism?

is there any criticism of Mormon beliefs and practices? why was it not included on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.56.216.83 (talk) 13:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Because there are two other articles already about that. --Masamage 19:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Can anyone shed more light on the allegations that they teach that some people will live on their own planets or something along those lines. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.56.216.83 (talk • contribs).

The relevant discussion of that on WP can be found at Theosis#Deification in Mormonism and in the article that section links to. The basic idea you're probably thinking of is that the church teaches that there is opportunity for people to become "as Heavenly Father is," continue progressing forever, create their own worlds, and have their own spirit children. --Masamage 08:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Up the Opening Again, Sorry!

I haven't been around in a while. I don't really like the direction the opening paragraphs have gone. It seems we have moved backwards compared to the clarity and professionalism of the introduction around a year ago. Here is how it read April 17, 2006:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as the "LDS Church" or the "Mormon Church", is the largest and most well-known denomination within the Latter Day Saint movement (a form of Restorationism). The church is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. Latter-day Saints regard Jesus Christ as the head of their church and count themselves as Christians, but do not consider themselves part of the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant traditions. Rather, they believe the church to be the restoration of the original church established by Jesus Christ on Earth.

Compare that to the current:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a church with American origins that claims to be the restoration of the original Christian church founded by Jesus during his earthly ministry. Sometimes referred to as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, the church teaches that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1820 and called him to be a prophet and to restore His Church on the earth, including essential elements that were lost from Christianity between Paul's death and the First Council of Nicaea. These elements included scriptures previously unknown to western civilization, the calling of Twelve Apostles as special witnesses of Christ's divinity, and the restoration of priesthood authority. The Church was organized by Joseph Smith and five others in Fayette, New York on April 6, 1830, shortly after the first publication of the Book of Mormon. An international organization with a majority of worldwide members living outside of the United States, the LDS Church has its world headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah, where 96-year-old Gordon B. Hinckley serves as its 15th President and is considered to be the world's modern prophet and earthly voice for Jesus Christ. The church sends tens of thousands of male and female missionaries throughout the world, and in 2005 reported a worldwide membership of over 12.5 million.

I don't know, maybe everyone likes it better the new way? But I doubt it. Some of the changes were largely due to a crusade to stamp out any "consider themselves Christian" language on the part of one or two sensitive LDS. Since the discussion ultimately ruled out the word "Christian" it was determined to give a summary of the beliefs instead. Hopefully that discussion has cooled off and they can now see the error of their ways and we can put that back in. And then there's a year's worth of the natural drift that occurs with multiple authors constantly editing.

Anyway, is there anyone besides me that thinks the 2006 version is better? Novel-Technology 07:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I vote for the 2006 version. Bytebear 22:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As do I, but I think the 2006 version can be improved, as well. I made an edit, including the most basic information that I think people who know nothing or little about the church would like to know, which would give them a reason to read the entire article. If I were a Martian reading the 2007 version, I'd be bored and befuddled. After reading the 2006 version, I'd be saying "so what?". Maybe my edit is a step toward a "third way". COGDEN 23:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

From my comments on the much vs most "Christian" talking points, I will add this here.

"If you are truly looking for a NPOV of what it means to be Christian, then please use the dictionary's definition of a Christian, rather than what other religions consider to be Christian. From dictionary.com we find the definition as being:

Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith. 2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country. 3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades. 4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity. 5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial. 6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian. –noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity. 8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian. 9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren. 10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. 11. a male given name.

Obviously definitions 10 and 11 can be excluded when considering whether a religion is considered "Christian" or not. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, have a religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, try to live Christlike lives, are generally decent and respectable, humane people, who believe in Jesus Christ, and tries to live their lives according the the teachings of Jesus Christ. The way I read it, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Christians.Web Woman 18:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)"

Instead of qualifying that they "consider themsleves Christian", would it not be more appropriate to call them a Christian religion as per the definition? Web Woman 15:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. Novel-Technology 15:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem with using this definition to prove that Mormons are Christian is that the Christ of the Mormons is a completely different person, both in nature and in his teachings, from the Christ of other religions. Mormons believe that Christs' teachings were lost or corrupted until the revelations of Joseph Smith; while the other religions that call themselves Christian follow these supposedly corrupted teachings. Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ was True God and True Man, while this is a fundamental teaching of the other religions that call themselves Christian. The Catholic and Protestant sects of Christianity disagree vehemently over fundamental aspects of theology, but have in common a definite core belief set (of which C.S. Lewis' _Mere Christianity_ is one attempt to codify) and a set of documents (most books of the bible) which they agree to be uncorrupt and reliable. Mormons do not hold to this core belief set and hold the Bible to be corrupt. This is why most Catholics and Protestants can be relied upon to stop arguing with each other just long enough to assert in unison that the Mormons are not of their religion. This has nothing to do with whether or not Mormons are humane or virtuous not.

It should be noted that the Muslims also claim to follow Christ, but, like Mormons, hold their own view of his nature, purpose, and teachings. Should Muslims be called Christian because they claim to follow Christ as a prophet?R.E.S.A. 19:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of your description of LDS beliefs are not accurate. For example, in what way do Mormons not believe that Jesus is true God and man? As for "Mere Christianity", at many Mormons agree with most of the points in that book. The only exception that I noticed is his chapter about family relationships continuing after death. Actually, I've seen portions of that book used in LDS Sunday School classes (especially the "rats in the basement" story)!
The Jesus that Mormons worship is the same person as He who other Christians worship. We may believe different things about him, but he is the same person. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 19:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This is totally irrelevant to the article, but here's my take:
Actually, the question of whether the Mormon Jesus is the same "person" as the traditional Christian Jesus is a silly question, since if you answer the question in the negative, you would be asserting that there are two separate Jesuses, which conflicts with Christian doctrine. The real question a "true" Christian must ask is whether or not Mormons worship the one Jesus, or whether what they "do" doesn't count as worshipping him. But if it's impossible to worship Jesus without understanding his "correct" nature, then most Catholics and Protestants aren't Christian, either, because their concept of Jesus' nature isn't that sophisticated. COGDEN 23:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
FYI, not that it will ever persuade your typical evangelical Bible-thumping right-winger, but Jimmy Carter, himself an evangelical, thinks Mormons are Christian. See this Newsweek article. COGDEN 01:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
R.E.S.A., I'm not sure where you got the idea that Mormons think that the Bible is "corrupt." That would be quite a surprise to every Mormon who is studying the New Testament in Sunday School this year (Old Testament was last year). But, getting back to the article, the facts are: 1) Mormon's consider themselves Christian, 2) They absolutely believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament and 3) other religions dispute their claim of being Christian. Bochica 04:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
"Corrupted" would be a better term. It's because of the tons of monks copying it by hand and translating it back and forth so much. Hence, Joseph Smith's translation. --Masamage 05:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, comparison with ancient texts indicate that the monks (and before that, the rabbis) did a pretty good job of copying. The "translated correctly" (IMHO) deals more with interpretations of the biblical text than the actual text itself. That said, there are a number of families of texts that can be identified (and I'm not just talking about the Documentary Hypothesis). As for the JST, that is more of a commentary than a true translation, and LDS classes use the text sparingly. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 14:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
That is a much more accurate description. It should be pointed out that, although a "Joseph Smith Translation" (JST) exists, passages from it are used only occasionally as a study aid and it is not part of the canon of scripture of the (Salt Lake City based) LDS church. The LDS church uses the standard KJV Bible, although they have a printing of the KJV which is fully cross-referenced through footnotes to the other Mormon standard works. The KJV text itself is unaltered and is used extensively in the church. The JST footnotes are used more as an interesting comparison, and they didn't even appear in the LDS printing of the KJV until 1981. Bochica 14:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kolob

I think if any mention is going to be made of Kolob, it should at least be accurate. (For what it's worth, I don't think it's appropriate to have a mention of Kolob on the page about the Church itself. Maybe on a page about Latter Day Saint theology, but not on one about the legal structure called TCOJCOLDS.)

Anyway, the Church does not teach that God the Father and Jesus Christ "live on a planet named Kolob". This is a favourite misquote of anti-Mormon types, who fail to actually report what the Book of Abraham actually says about Kolob. Please--no more statements that God lives on a planet named Kolob, 'cos we all know that no one actually teaches or believes that! SESmith 02:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well said. Remember to sign your comments. ^^ --Masamage 01:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the reminder to sign, and I apologize for forgetting. It was not my intention to try to leave an anonymous message. SESmith 02:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
No worries. Everyone does it now and then. ^^ --Masamage 02:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
There already is an article on Kolob. Interestingly enough, Battlestar Galactica, written by a Mormon, mentions a planet called Kobol. Just a bit of trivia. Both items are trivia, and do not deserve attention in this article. Bytebear 04:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nature of God - Heavenly Mother

I have a problem with the phrase "The Church teaches ..." about Heavenly Mother. Yes, her existence is implied in Gospel Principles because it talks about our heavenly parents. President Kimball mentions her during the cited talk, and she is again implied in the hymn "O My Father". IMHO those citations show that it is widely believed, but not that the church teaches. I don't recall any church lesson that teaches her existence.

Maybe I'm picking nits, but it seems to me that the article currently implies that Mormons are actively teaching others about that doctrine, when in fact, it is much more subtle. IMHO, an official doctrine of the church is a concept that all are expected to believe. If somebody has problems accepting the existence of Heavenly Mother, it will have absolutely no effect on their membership, ability to serve in leadership positions, etc.

Is it just me, or am I making sense? Thoughts? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying. However, Gospel Principles is the most basic Sunday School manual of the Church. Lesson 2 clearly states that there are heavenly parents (i.e. a father and a mother). This lesson is "taught" in most units of the Church at least once per year, and all new converts and recently reactivated people are encouraged to attend that class. This sounds like "teaching" to me.
Also, there has been tremendous emphasis on many levels of "teaching" in the Church on the Proclamation on the Family. Again, this document clearly and very early on states that everyone is a child of heavenly parents. Therefore, I think it's indisputable that the Church does teach it. However, perhaps the best solution would be to add a sentence that indicates that it is not focused on to a great degree in the teachings--that it is a doctrine that is taught but it is by no means dwelt upon or emphasized. SESmith 04:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, wrp103 (Bill Pringle), you may be interested in working on the page on Heavenly Mother. You might have some concerns about what it says there too. SESmith 04:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, Gospel Principles is First-Presidency approved. (And to nit-pick, she's more than implied in O My Father: "In the heavens are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!")
Anyway, I do think you're right, but we have to be expressive about it. Rather than rephrasing it a la "Some members believe..." why not just be specific: "Official church materials refer to 'Heavenly Parents', implying the existence of a Heavenly Mother. Belief in such a figure is common among members, and she has also been mentioned by some church officials. No specific doctrines on the subject have been released by the church, however." --Masamage 04:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I would support a change like that SESmith 05:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
As would I. Good idea. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 15:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Another "Yes" here. Any other LDS references to "Heavenly Mother" appear to be simple speculation. WBardwin 01:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised that was received so well. :) I've worked it in. --Masamage 18:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This is the way that Wikipedia is supposed to work. ;^)
SESmith, I looked at Heavenly Mother and found no problems other than the fact that it seemed pretty LDS heavy. That concept has been floating around for a long time, and IMHO the article should better reflect the variety of groups that have adopted such a belief. I added a short Asherah section. I wish I had more time (and knowledge) to work on it more. :-( wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 19:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
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